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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 3851076 times)

Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6555 on: May 29, 2013, 04:05:23 am »

It's essentially planned that eventually a lack of feeding has an adverse effect on the vampire, and since vampires are generated randomly, the adverse effects could range from dying to going crazed, entering some sort of hibernation, or maybe even transforming into a form better suited for hunting prey.
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Will vamps have withdrawal symptoms from not getting theyr bloody fix? Stuff like raging, aging rapidly, loosing strength etc.?
It seems like something should happen, but since they won't always be able to hunt during play (mostly they won't, being off in the world some place), it's not important to do that until we get them activated.
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Draco18s

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6556 on: May 29, 2013, 07:42:54 am »

Eh, I think people are more about exploiting the game mechanics. You could get a bunch of vampires in a fort and wall them off training and only release them to do combat. Nothing against it, people can play the game the way they like it, but the way it is it's kinda strange and vampires should need to drink blood regularly otherwise they should die.

"And we dedicate this young virgin, as horrible as her fate might be, to the prosperity of our kingdom.  Into the hatch you go."
*Shoves innocent victim to their bloodless demise*
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SmileyMan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6557 on: May 29, 2013, 07:47:52 am »

Why not have both strands in the game as different syndromes? Vampires and Vampyres, maybe?

Then you can shove your suspect in a box for a year.  Open it, and you have either a) starved your vampire to death, and saved the fortress, or b) forced your vampyre into a bloodrage, unleashing untold slaughter on your dorfs.

Especially if the above procedure was the only way to tell the difference...
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In a fat-fingered moment while setting up another military squad I accidentally created a captain of the guard rather than a militia captain.  His squad of near-legendary hammerdwarves equipped with high quality silver hammers then took it upon themselves to dispense justice to all the mandate breakers in the fortress.  It was quite messy.

Mr S

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6558 on: May 29, 2013, 08:00:45 am »

Let me handle this one.

"Sounds reasonable.  No timeline."

In all seriousness, since Toady has said that in the future everything is chrome many, many things will be procedurally generated, the above example is highly likely.  And, without dredging Legends mode, or looking into raws, it may be very difficult to tell what type of cursed, blood thirsty creature of darkness has passed itself innocently into your gates.
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6559 on: May 29, 2013, 08:43:45 am »

I think that making them "weaker" or "devolve" into something else rather than making them stronger or outright killing them is the more sensible solution.

By weaker or devolve I don't mean necessarily physically weaker. A vampire that lacks feeding for a long time can perhaps become extremely sensitive to sunlight, or become too paranoid or crazy, or become a savage beast by losing it's mind, even physically change into something akin to an animal (like the vampires of the Priest or in Soul Reaver), or a rooting body (basically a zombie with fangs) or anything you can think off.

On the other hand it would be cool to have vampires become either less or more dependent on feeding as time goes by, this could make either extremely resilient vampires as they get older or the other way around, where vampires have a hard time getting too much old because their ever increasing need of blood will weed out most of them to become feral creatures (perhaps more easily killed?), and only a smart and skillful minority could manage to survive (or surdead?) in the long run. On both cases to keep getting older the securing of continuous feeding could be needed, either by terrorizing villages and killing competition (a solitary life) or forming groups, clans, kingdoms, civilizations or whatever to watch each other backs and ensure control over large amounts of population to feed upon.

Vampire fortress are not exploits, they are simply not challenging enough yet. In all modern "folklore" we see that vampires, as much evolved they are, still need to feed upon humans. Take day breakers for example, in that movie the vampire population got out of hand so bad that they ended up ruling the world, but need to have human farms a la matrix to harvest blood for everyone and even then food is scarce.

The issue with vampires is that they are apex predators, and as such their numbers must be necessarily smaller that the number of their prey in order to keep them all "alive" (or happy, or whatever). For them to from up groups, bands, fortress, civilizations, they need some strict behavior code (so they don't multiply beyond their sustainability or kill each other) and they need a food supply. In the case of "sophisticated" vampire societies they could even reign over a no vampire civilization, eating from them without actually diminishing their numbers.

A perfect example of what we could look for in this case is the one of Sylvania from Warhammer 40k, there vampires are more or less scarce, their armies are mainly composed of zombies and skeletons raised when needed, mercenaries and even human citizens of their lands. They don't outright exterminate the humans, they just keep them under their power and feed upon them on necessity. In fact humans under their reign are marginally happy, since they don't collect much on the sense of taxes (beyond the occasional peasant for dinner), provide plenty of security for them (few dare to enter a zombie/vampire/skeleton/werewolve infested land to plunder) and basically mind their own business.

On the other side right now DF lacks (for the time being) something that would definitely keep vampires in check in every universe. Vampire hunters. From Simon Belmont to Van Helsing, they all have been the ultimate terror to vampires. It remain to be seen, once is implemented, how guilds, groups, religious sects and orders would affect the world, but I have no doubt there wont be a lack of vampire hunters (that would also hunt other assorted monsters). That could be the crucial element of balance to keep vampires in check.

By having one of such guilds on your civilization or laying around in a neighboring one, you could expect regular visits if there is anything suspicious, random trials a la Spanish Inquisition (but they you can' expect ok?) or perhaps you can even call them for help with your liaison once you suspect something funny is happening in your fort. But this could go the other way around too, if you intend to make a vampire fortress then they could be added to the list of sieges or even "excommunicate" you from your civ if they fail to clean the fortress either by action or inaction form your side, basically making everyone and their grandmother you enemy.

Thoughts anyone? (Beyond what a bunch of text)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 08:50:43 am by LordBaal »
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
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SmileyMan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6560 on: May 29, 2013, 09:17:26 am »

On the other side right now DF lacks (for the time being) something that would definitely keep vampires in check in every universe. Vampire hunters. From Simon Belmont to Van Helsing, they all have been the ultimate terror to vampires. It remain to be seen, once is implemented, how guilds, groups, religious sects and orders would affect the world, but I have no doubt there wont be a lack of vampire hunters (that would also hunt other assorted monsters). That could be the crucial element of balance to keep vampires in check.
I'm not sure it needs the job so much as a way to kill vampires - e.g. give them an Achilles' Heel.  The classic one is the stake to the heart. I'm not an expert on the game mechanics, but I think poison-like things are in already, so "heart injury from wooden weapon triggers rapid spreading poison effect" would be cool, and would mean that fighting vampires with crossbows and wooden bolts would be a potential outfit for an adventure mode Van Helsing. Needs targetting as well, which I think isn't there yet for aimed weapons, but perhaps a wooden shortsword could suffice.

The converse would be that vampires could not be permakilled unless the heart was completely destroyed (poisoned as above, burned or pulped)
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In a fat-fingered moment while setting up another military squad I accidentally created a captain of the guard rather than a militia captain.  His squad of near-legendary hammerdwarves equipped with high quality silver hammers then took it upon themselves to dispense justice to all the mandate breakers in the fortress.  It was quite messy.

LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6561 on: May 29, 2013, 09:21:25 am »

I think targeted combat is coming with this release. I'm not sure because I don't pay too much attention to combat features per se.
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Draco18s

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6562 on: May 29, 2013, 09:22:59 am »

I'm not sure it needs the job so much as a way to kill vampires - e.g. give them an Achilles' Heel.  The classic one is the stake to the heart.

Ironically, a wooden steak to the heart will kill just about anyone permanently. :P
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Mr S

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6563 on: May 29, 2013, 09:27:47 am »

Come to think of it, so do silver bullets.
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SmileyMan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6564 on: May 29, 2013, 09:32:20 am »

Ironically, a wooden steak to the heart will kill just about anyone permanently. :P
I would like it very much if vampires could somehow survive a non-wooden staking.
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In a fat-fingered moment while setting up another military squad I accidentally created a captain of the guard rather than a militia captain.  His squad of near-legendary hammerdwarves equipped with high quality silver hammers then took it upon themselves to dispense justice to all the mandate breakers in the fortress.  It was quite messy.

LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6565 on: May 29, 2013, 09:57:59 am »

Dwarf Fortress being Dwarf Fortress some vampires might require to be staked with a dragons right hand middle finger bone to be killed. Of course this means you need to kill a dragon first. ;)
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Draco18s

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6566 on: May 29, 2013, 10:39:15 am »

I would like it very much if vampires could somehow survive a non-wooden staking.

Oh sure, nothing wrong with that.

Just make sure not to go on a witch hunt. ;)
(If he dies from the staking: well, god rest his soul.  If he doesn't, he was a vampire: murder-stab him some more).
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WillowLuman

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6567 on: May 29, 2013, 02:03:01 pm »

I like the idea of some eternal bureaucrat, sealed away for their crimes to toil in accounting for eternity, doing the books long after the fortress has crumbled around them and the mortals all perished. At the end of the tantrum spiral which leaves the settlement nothing but a maze of drying bones, they calmly and simply begin adding everyone to the "deceased" file, before spending the next several decades updating the fortress wealth every time an object weathers away.

There might even be repentant vampires, who consign themselves to such a fate. I just don't want the possibility axed altogether. It's currently fairly tricky to both find the vampire and get the setup right, so I wouldn't say it's an exploit.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 02:05:07 pm by HugoLuman »
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6568 on: May 29, 2013, 02:46:19 pm »

But once you got your dirty hands on one is fairly easy to have a all vampire fortress with no consequences all together. I think that to keep it FUN!, as you renounce to food and booze responsibilities you should also acquire new ones.

As for eternal accountants (God helps us all), I think that, given the nature of dwarf fortress each one could possibly edit a line in a raw here and there to make it tailored to our tastes. Or maybe we finally get to make barrels of miscellaneous liquids and you can entomb your bean counter with barrel upon barrel of the most exquisite dwarf blood. ;)

In all seriousness, I think vampires would remain essentially immortal in the game forever, I don't think anyone here want a "mortal" vampire. However long periods of not drinking blood should indeed affect them, and in the case of dwarf fortress that (along with some vampire hunters guilds and such) could make a vampire fortress (or try to avoid becoming one) extra FUN!
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

O11O1

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6569 on: May 29, 2013, 03:04:41 pm »

Perhaps they don't so much die as simply go into a "sleep" state when they're low on blood, remaining motionless for ever increasingly long stretches of time... until something warm and drinkable happens by, and then they lash out in hunger.
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