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[Greiger]

With the comments on goblins finding food for citizens having to eat, will this include hunting for carnivore races or will those guys still be out of luck and destined to starve in a few years?

[CaptainArchmage]

With the comments on goblins finding food for citizens having to eat, will this include hunting for carnivore races or will those guys still be out of luck and destined to starve in a few years?

I think Toady's plan is the goblins will take over the food-producing sites for those races, so they will be able to provide food for the citizens who need to eat.

Carnivore races should be able to hunt, though. Any species that has the ethics right and can eat meat should be able to hunt.

[EmeraldWind]

With the comments on goblins finding food for citizens having to eat, will this include hunting for carnivore races or will those guys still be out of luck and destined to starve in a few years?

I think Toady's plan is the goblins will take over the food-producing sites for those races, so they will be able to provide food for the citizens who need to eat.

Carnivore races should be able to hunt, though. Any species that has the ethics right and can eat meat should be able to hunt.

Goblins capturing hamlets for producing food is kind of a neat idea. They could even use the residents of the town as slaves to man the food producing. I can see some really interesting stories crop out of a situation like that.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fifteen years ago the goblins raided our village, since then we have been forced to work the land to barely benefit of our own. This poor town is slowly dying as the residents get older. The children have all be taken to the fort and each  year the goblins come back to take our food and babies. Years ago, we were left with the life-altering thought that we would never see our kids again. Little did we know that never seeing our kids again would have been a good thing. Last year, the goblin caravan had no actual goblins running it. Instead the it was run by our children, but they weren't our children anymore. I hope no one ever feels the pain of be reunited with their children after they have converted. A woman ran out to her son, only to be cut down by him. They came for the food supplies and to take any newly born children. We could only watch in silent horror as our children carried away their own little brothers and sisters back to the tower. We need help, but its already too late.

[darklord92]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fifteen years ago the goblins raided our village, since then we have been forced to work the land to barely benefit of our own. This poor town is slowly dying as the residents get older. The children have all be taken to the fort and each  year the goblins come back to take our food and babies. Years ago, we were left with the life-altering thought that we would never see our kids again. Little did we know that never seeing our kids again would have been a good thing. Last year, the goblin caravan had no actual goblins running it. Instead the it was run by our children, but they weren't our children anymore. I hope no one ever feels the pain of be reunited with their children after they have converted. A woman ran out to her son, only to be cut down by him. They came for the food supplies and to take any newly born children. We could only watch in silent horror as our children carried away their own little brothers and sisters back to the tower. We need help, but its already too late.

That was horribly depressing and painful to read, it sounds absolutely goblin. I'd like to see this happen in game, namely to fight back against it.

[WillowLuman]

I'd imagine that goblins would also chop up unwanted prisoners / dead enemies for the soup pot of their mortal citizens / slaves.

[Scoops Novel]

Bear in mind goblins kidnap to raise non demon leaders. What that entails is anyone's guess, but whether cruelty is preferred is an open question.

[Willfor]

I think a lot of people think of goblins in a much different way than I do. They have a cruel streak in them, but it comes from a place of apathy, anger and boredom. I don't picture many goblins purposefully attempting to make their slaves/kidnapee's lives difficult on purpose. They would have to go out of their way to think of ways to do that. Their creativity is funneled into playing with dead bodies, or other very amusing games that don't require them to think about complex things such as the emotions of others. They're not good with understanding emotions in the first place.

They don't understand food, so when the people they've captured tell them what they need to eat, they should believe them and just think it's weird.

<Human> We have to grow vegetables because they're the most efficient way to feed everyone you want us to.
<Goblin> Whatever, just do all the boring stuff yourself. And do it good!
<Human> Okay!

I think Goblins need leaders from other races because those other races have a greater capacity to be cruel by actually understanding emotional cruelty on a higher level. They need something to aspire to. They need an "art level" cruelty to look up to that they can never seem to grasp without outside help. Humans, elves, and dwarves can do that for them.

[CrzyMonkeyNinja]

Goblins capturing hamlets for producing food is kind of a neat idea. They could even use the residents of the town as slaves to man the food producing. I can see some really interesting stories crop out of a situation like that.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fifteen years ago the goblins raided our village, since then we have been forced to work the land to barely benefit of our own. This poor town is slowly dying as the residents get older. The children have all be taken to the fort and each  year the goblins come back to take our food and babies. Years ago, we were left with the life-altering thought that we would never see our kids again. Little did we know that never seeing our kids again would have been a good thing. Last year, the goblin caravan had no actual goblins running it. Instead the it was run by our children, but they weren't our children anymore. I hope no one ever feels the pain of be reunited with their children after they have converted. A woman ran out to her son, only to be cut down by him. They came for the food supplies and to take any newly born children. We could only watch in silent horror as our children carried away their own little brothers and sisters back to the tower. We need help, but its already too late.

[Tolkien nerdiness]
This whole thing reminds me of how after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (a big battle where the good guys lost) the Easterlings (bad guys) enthralled all the Edain (good guys) in Hithlum and forced them to work in the fields while the Easterlings lived a life of comfort in the great halls of the Edain.
[/Tolkien nerdiness]

[EmeraldWind]

I think a lot of people think of goblins in a much different way than I do. They have a cruel streak in them, but it comes from a place of apathy, anger and boredom. I don't picture many goblins purposefully attempting to make their slaves/kidnapee's lives difficult on purpose. They would have to go out of their way to think of ways to do that. Their creativity is funneled into playing with dead bodies, or other very amusing games that don't require them to think about complex things such as the emotions of others. They're not good with understanding emotions in the first place.

They don't understand food, so when the people they've captured tell them what they need to eat, they should believe them and just think it's weird.

<Human> We have to grow vegetables because they're the most efficient way to feed everyone you want us to.
<Goblin> Whatever, just do all the boring stuff yourself. And do it good!
<Human> Okay!

I think Goblins need leaders from other races because those other races have a greater capacity to be cruel by actually understanding emotional cruelty on a higher level. They need something to aspire to. They need an "art level" cruelty to look up to that they can never seem to grasp without outside help. Humans, elves, and dwarves can do that for them.

One thing in my mini story that kind of gets left out due to perspective is the kidnappees aren't having their lives made difficult. They are just being educated to live the goblin lifestyle up and to the point where they don't actually remember their parents. And the goblins ensalving the parents was for the express purpose of feeding the kidnappees so that they would survive. By the time the kidnappees are old enough to go out and retrieve the food, they are completely different from who they would have been. Also the goblins aren't exactly making the slaves lives harder by torturing them just by the continued kidnapping of their new born. I even see it in my mind that they continue to grow food because they know that it is for their kids. (And in the case of the kid killing his own mother, it wasn't out of cruelty. Just that the goblins have a strict "you work for us and leave us be; we'll let you live, but you cross us and we won't hesitate to kill" thing going.)

It is a sad setting and depending on how long it goes it may not be possible for the town to have a happy end, but it adds to the flavor of the world. And like someone said above it gives motivation to help out and to see what happens if you do. It is these kinds of things that will make DF a true experience to have. I wouldn't be surprised if someday there is a sub-genre of fantasy that are novels based on player's experiences with DF. I mean that is already kind of a thing with the Let's Plays and succession games, but as DF grows in complexity the more interesting the stories will get.

That was horribly depressing and painful to read, it sounds absolutely goblin. I'd like to see this happen in game, namely to fight back against it.

Yeah, it popped into my head the moment I thought a little in depth about what being occupied by goblins would entail. I also took into the account that goblins seem to think they are actually saving the kids and would want to keep them alive hence using the hamlet and its people for food production rather than flat out destroying it. I would like to see situations similar to these crop up and then get dealt with. I could see a 13 year old grow up to be 22 or so and then go and try free their younger siblings or friends who were still young enough to be taken. Thus you can generate an adventure right in the middle of the town and start your story right there.

[Tolkien nerdiness]
This whole thing reminds me of how after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (a big battle where the good guys lost) the Easterlings (bad guys) enthralled all the Edain (good guys) in Hithlum and forced them to work in the fields while the Easterlings lived a life of comfort in the great halls of the Edain.
[/Tolkien nerdiness]

Just reminding someone of a Tolkien story is compliment in my book. So thanks.

[Caldfir]

Something I've been mulling over related to the in-game worldgen thing is, will these secondary worldgens update the raws?
Basically what I'm asking is will we be able to generate a "normal" world, play it for awhile, then mod in the discovery of guns to shake things up in a second worldgen?

I believe it would work. There shouldn't be any problem. Just like if you mod in a weapon after genning now and have your people make and use it.

I'm of the understanding that currently the ability to actually produce an item through a reaction is cooked into the civilizations themselves upon creation (year 0 of worldgen) and that can't ever be changed, so setting this up directly wouldn't work.  What might do it is having some "spare reactions" built into your modded civs, which you then change to create the desired item at the end of standard worldgen.  Though I still don't believe Toady's actually got a full-on "switch back to worldgen" option working yet, so you'd actually need to experience all those years (probably through fort mode) in order to get interesting legends relating yo the technology advancement. 

I imagine there will be soe fun to be had on the modding forum with regards to this once the update hits. 

[hops]

I suppose I won't be greening this question as it's not like it even require Toady's answer. I'm just asking the masses here.

Does Toady have an idea for what he should change in the game to prevent tantrum spirals?

[DG]

I suppose I won't be greening this question as it's not like it even require Toady's answer. I'm just asking the masses here.

Does Toady have an idea for what he should change in the game to prevent tantrum spirals?

I asked something similar for the next DF talk. It may get discussed if we're lucky. I basically asked how much of the current tantrum mechanics are placeholders, and how much of it is working as intended in a longterm sense.

[Dutchling]

There is a Dwarf personality rewrite planned for some time in the future, I assume that is also going to handle tantrum spirals/

[Trif]

What's wrong with tantrum spirals?

[Neonivek]

What's wrong with tantrum spirals?

Your fort is basically doomed.