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[DG]

I swear this goblins not eating thing comes back cyclically.

[Eric Blank]

"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."

Great Webcomic.

You just wasted 5 hours of time I could have spent sleeping. I hope you're happy you added yet another damn comic to my watch list, you sadistic bastard.

[Scoops Novel]

Alright then, but if this is the case, we should look at how it would affect them realistically. For one thing, there's all that extra space for siege weapons, and unlike any other civ inducing starvation is out of the picture. Dedicated goblins would have that much more time on their hands, they could easily seal themselves off and come back in a hundred years with no problem, etc.

[Osmosis Jones]

Or, with non-lethal combat coming in, will we be able to hog-tie someone or otherwise restrain them?

I actually asked Toady the exact same question a few months back, it's in one of the FotF posts;

are there any plans to be able to restrain our enemies after we subdue them? Either in terms of affixing them to actual restraints that we have in fortmode (like chains etc.), hogtying them, or tying them up but being able to walk?

Yeah, it's up on the dev page.  Gagging people and tying them up was originally envisioned as a way to deal with certain guards when you infiltrate a villain's site, and it might also come up when you force people to lead you somewhere.  That led to various stuff you might do in dwarf mode with relation to mine carts and all that.  When we allow you to tie people up, I'd expect it to probably all be done at once.

[Uronym]

I'm fascinated by the potential implications of the unique mechanics in video games. Let's analyze it:


First and foremost: How do goblins get their energy?

Goblins are living creatures that do stuff, and because of that, they need energy in some form. However, we know that they do not eat or drink, like most animals; this leaves us with a few options:

• Photosynthesis
• Chemosynthesis
• Thermosynthesis

Photosynthesis?

As several Bay12 watchers have noted before me, it is possible that goblins use photosynthesis. They have various shades of green skin (as seen in their raw files/descriptions) which would resemble the chlorophyll of the many green, photosynthesizing plants on Earth.

Photosynthesis as we know it on Earth requires carbon dioxide. Perhaps goblins kidnap children for carbon dioxide production within their dark fortresses, which would enhance photosynthesis! But this brings us to another point: goblins are typically portrayed as hating light in all of its forms, and, living in dark fortresses and sewers, probably don't get very much of it, making photosynthesis an unlikely candidate.

Chemosynthesis?

Chemosynthesis is another possibility. Chemosynthesis would, like photosynthesis, would greatly benefit from additional carbon dioxide, so it is still possible that goblins capture children for this purpose. Additionally, as goblins are shown to like the deep caverns and digging pits, it's possible they run into pockets of various chemicals that could be synthesized for energy. Perhaps they could use coal, as it has both carbon dioxide (for building their organic matter) and hydrogen (for energy), although I don't know of a life form that does this on Earth, or if this is possible.

Overall, compared to photosynthesis, chemosynthesis seems like a likely potential energy source of energy for our green friends.

Thermosynthesis?

Thermosynthesis is yet another potential energy source. As mentioned previously, goblins like to dig deep, and we know that the magma sea is right below the third cavern layer, which probably makes it very warm. However, goblins have many traits that would lead me to believe they are thermoregulators (they produce their own body heat); for example, they do not bask in the sun, and they can live in cold climates. This would be a waste of energy if one was in the deep, warm caverns, so it's possible that goblins only regulate their temperature when the ambient temperature is too cool.

This has a similar problem to photosynthesis, however, in that goblins often live in sewers. Sewers are probably not warm enough to sustain goblins. Additionally, goblins often come to your fortresses and siege for months, even years. For this, especially in a polar climate, goblins would need to have stored energy previously to their arrival at your gates, and as far as we know, the goblins that attack our fortresses do not appear to be morbidly obese as they would need to be to store sufficient energy to sustain them for those lengths of time. But, it's still not as contradictory as photosynthesis, so I'll say this would be my second guess if chemosynthesis couldn't work out.


To the scientifically inclined, such as myself, these are all very good possibilities. But we are drifting away from the point: this is a fantasy game, and Toady, detailed as he can be with many things, may simply want to leave it at magic. Disappointing, but this is probably the case. Nonetheless I will proceed to analyze the other side of the energy coin, consumption.


Energy Consumption of Goblins

All three of the potential energy sources detailed above have one problem in common: storage. Problems with each, respectively:

• Goblins spend as little time in the light as they possibly can. They cannot possibly gather and store sufficient energy with this method.
• Goblins may not always have access to these chemicals, for example, in sewers or while laying siege to your fortress.
• Goblins may not always have access to sufficient heat, for example, in sewers or while laying siege to your fortress on a glacier.

So let's observe first the problems with storage.

Energy Storage

We know from descriptions of the goblins that they can be both fat and thin, so it's likely that however they obtain their energy, they store it as fat in a similar manner to humans. Humans can eat anywhere (with convenient pre-packaged snack packs), but because goblins do not "eat" or "drink", there is a problem of storing the energy prior to consumption as well as transporting it. For solar energy, I cannot really see how they could transport "food", but a goblin that utilized chemosynthesis could conceivably store and transport the required chemical energy away from its presumably subterranean source, although we do not see goblins carrying {(lump of coal [10])} when they attack us in the sewers or siege our fortresses, although it's still a possibility.

Consumption

As mentioned previously, it is likely that goblins are thermoregulators (they regulate their body temperature), at least, in the instance that heat is used for energy, while away from their cavernous dwellings. Thermoregulation uses a lot of energy, which could be problematic. Goblins also act as if they have a similar metabolic rate to other humanoids, moving around at a similar speed. Therefore, because they are slightly smaller, goblins probably consume slightly less energy than a human.

There is a possibility, however, that when they are not being attacked or attacking, goblins lay around in their dark fortresses in a dormant state, merely synthesizing and storing energy for when they must attack/defend. If this were the case, goblins, assuming they store energy as humans, in fat, would be morbidly obese and would rely on this energy while away from their homes. This is not always the case; some goblins are thin and others are fat, although it is possible that the thinner goblins have simply been away from their "charging station" longer than the larger ones. Still, a thin goblin at the beginning of a siege is still thin (and not dead) by the end of it, six months later, leaving this an unlikely theorem.


To Conclude

In any of the potential energy sources that we explored in this document, there are many loose ends, especially when it comes to storing/transporting it, and we must not forget that Toady probably himself leaves it simply at magic. But, these are my guesses, in order from most probable to least probable, based on factors analyzed in this document:

• Chemosynthesis
• Thermosynthesis
• Photosynthesis

Thank you for reading this mighty word wall!

[Caldfir]

The explanation for goblins not needing to eat is detailed in several of ThreeToe's stories.  Essentially goblins (like demons) are escaped denizens of the underworld, and being magical extraplanar evil entities, they don't need to eat.  Think about it this way: should demons need to eat?  DF-goblins are essentially minor demons. 

The "science" explanations are nonetheless entertaining. 

[Helgoland]

To the scientifically inclined, such as myself,

Social sciences, eh?

Seriously though: Thermosynthesis is impossible (second law of thermodynamics, if I remember correctly), chemosynthesis is highly implausible (Eating coal? Hydrogen sulphide might have been a better candidate) as they survive above ground as well, and photosynthesis... you got that thing right. Any solution must be magic, one way or the other.

Also coal does not contain carbon dioxide.

I always liked to think that the core radiated magic that also heats up the magma, and that the underground life (and goblins) fed on that.

[Uronym]

To the scientifically inclined, such as myself,

Social sciences, eh?

Seriously though: Thermosynthesis is impossible (second law of thermodynamics, if I remember correctly), chemosynthesis is highly implausible (Eating coal? Hydrogen sulphide might have been a better candidate) as they survive above ground as well, and photosynthesis... you got that thing right. Any solution must be magic, one way or the other.

Also coal does not contain carbon dioxide.

I always liked to think that the core radiated magic that also heats up the magma, and that the underground life (and goblins) fed on that.

You are indeed correct. I meant, that if we refuse to accept magic then chemosynthesis is the most likely. And please excuse the ridiculous number of assumptions and presumptions. I enjoyed analyzing it.

EDIT: fixed quote soup

[Willfor]

If this conversation progresses, please remember to use the quote tags properly so that it doesn't look like you're just trying to say what other people have said earlier in the thread. It makes these things far easier to read on everyone's part if the new things you're trying to say are outside of the quote tags.

[Buttery_Mess]

I might point out that whatever powers goblins probably powers dogs and turkeys the same way.


...*cough*

[WillowLuman]

Don't non-grazer animals occasionally get fed when not in cages?

[Parisbre56]

Don't non-grazer animals occasionally get fed when not in cages?

They only get fed when trained I think. The rest of the time they need nothing. It's what makes animal powered computers possible.

[mastahcheese]

Another problem with photosynthisis and other explanations is the fact that although goblins don't eat, they still vomit when punched in the gut.
This also means that if they feed off of evil, then evil is actually green like vomit, which would explain the skin color.

[theqmann]

Any updates on dwarven economy for player forts? Right now ownership is communal for players, but is that the case in npc cities too? I can't see thieves having much to do if everyone shares all the stuff, unless they just move stuff from one civ stockpile to another.

[WillowLuman]

Another problem with photosynthisis and other explanations is the fact that although goblins don't eat, they still vomit when punched in the gut.
This also means that if they feed off of evil, then evil is actually green like vomit, which would explain the skin color.

Again, though, they're grey, with weird hair colors. Maybe the [EVIL] becomes green after making it through their digestive tract.

On the subject of colons, I think that dwarven farms are so improbably fertile because of their discreet waste disposal. Since everyone gets grower experience, no matter what you set the prefs to, from harvesting crops, perhaps there's a reason everyone decides to visit the farm plots once in a while...