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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 3841943 times)

Igfig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2460 on: June 18, 2012, 03:03:53 pm »

Do the changes to how entities claim sites mean that sites and lairs and the like are going to work in a more unified fashion?

I mean, right now you've got towns, fortresses, camps, caves, sewers, towers, tombs, etc, and they all work differently. But is there any reason why a successful bandit group couldn't use a fortress as its base instead of a camp, or a civilization couldn't live in towers and shrines instead of hamlets? Or heck, why night creatures couldn't lair in towns?

Dradym

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2461 on: June 18, 2012, 03:37:42 pm »

since multiple attacks will be implemented, will heroes, sufficiently skilled, be able to dual wield and attack twice at the same time?

not that this NEEDS to be put in, but its Chuck Norris awesome...also, if not wielding weapons...kickx2, punchx2, headbutt, bite...etc at the same time?...like Chuck Norris
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CaptainArchmage

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2462 on: June 18, 2012, 03:41:08 pm »

If we get mounts in Dwarf mode with this update, this will likely mean some way to feed animals will be included.

Also, abandoned fortresses may get taken over by bandits.

I really hope this release puts mountain halls, dark fortresses, and elven retreats back in. It would also be good to have camps actually show up in gameplay, so you might come across a bandit-built fortification in adventure mode. Alternatively, you might embark near or on top of one in dwarf fortress mode.


since multiple attacks will be implemented, will heroes, sufficiently skilled, be able to dual wield and attack twice at the same time?

not that this NEEDS to be put in, but its Chuck Norris awesome...also, if not wielding weapons...kickx2, punchx2, headbutt, bite...etc at the same time?...like Chuck Norris

Those multiple-armed creatures you mod in will became a lot more dangerous.
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trees

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2463 on: June 18, 2012, 06:01:41 pm »

How will movement and attack speed be determined for different types of creatures? To clarify - will the game recognize that a hydra has many heads to bite with and automatically give it a faster attack speed, or will creatures like that need to have an equivalent of the current SPEED token? I suppose they could be tied to different attributes, too.

Now that multiple attacks can be used at the same time, does that mean weapon traps will attack with all their weapons at the same time now?
I'm pretty sure that this already happens. Once a creature steps on to a weapon trap it's instantly attacked by everything in it; this is why you sometimes get weird behavior with goblins dodging multiple tiles away from one trap.
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monk12

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2464 on: June 18, 2012, 08:15:14 pm »

I rather hope combat styles sneak in with the combat speed split. I'm quite pleased we're on to new and shiny features.

MrWiggles

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2465 on: June 18, 2012, 08:53:47 pm »

Now that multiple attacks can be used at the same time, does that mean weapon traps will attack with all their weapons at the same time now? Are we going to get riders and riding in the new release given that you've mentioned that on the devblog, or is this still just regarding fortress mode invasions?
The villains stuff will impact Adventure Mode much more then Fort Mode, but it'll lead to more reasons behind sieges in Fort Mode.
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EvilTwin

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2466 on: June 18, 2012, 11:56:22 pm »

Now that multiple attacks can be used at the same time, does that mean weapon traps will attack with all their weapons at the same time now? Are we going to get riders and riding in the new release given that you've mentioned that on the devblog, or is this still just regarding fortress mode invasions?
The villains stuff will impact Adventure Mode much more then Fort Mode, but it'll lead to more reasons behind sieges in Fort Mode.

I think we might have the whole villain thing influence fort mode more than we can imagine right now... For instance, once Toady has the whole system nailed down, it's probably just a few lines of code to make our dwarves steal random stuff. And that would be quite amazing.

But yeah, I don't think the whole riding-and-attacking thing will really influence fortmode all that much, at least not right now.
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Fieari

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2467 on: June 19, 2012, 10:05:31 am »

Going back a couple of pages about weapon kill lists being intimidating or not... this could be a function of personality, with superstitious and/or traditionally minded individuals being more effected by it.
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Miuramir

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2468 on: June 19, 2012, 03:04:50 pm »

Quote from: Dev Log
the split between movement/combat actions as well as reaction moments.
finally, dwarf fortress takes another giant step away from traditional roguelike combat...

Quite a few Roguelikes have adopted variable-energy action cost systems of one sort or another, as a way to better organize the old "multiple blows", "multiple shots", "extra attacks" and "increased speed" systems into something more unified.  This helps allow for the aforementioned "cheetah" case (runs very fast, but doesn't attack much faster than typical), the "hydra" case (large, slow-moving creatures with many attacks if you're unwise enough to get within its range), and a wide variety of other interesting possibilities.  I'm quite pleased that DF is getting something along these lines, as it opens up both better simulation and more interesting game possibilities. 

This can also be a useful input into weapon balancing.  Even with the simplest of fixed-energy system (single value in weapon raws, for instance), hopefully we'll finally be able to have slower-firing but more powerful cranequin-equpped crossbows and the like.  Historical siege defender crossbows evolved for longer range and better armor penetration at the expense of easy portability and rate of fire; given the sort of besieging monsters one can get in DF and dwarven mechanical aptitude, it's been an obviously missing part of the balance. 

Once you have a variable energy system, there are even more interesting possibilities.  The energy required to attack with a melee weapon could well be derived from a comparison of the wielder's size and the weapon's size, a comparison of the weapon's weight and the wielder's strength, whether it's being used multi-grasp or not, and possibly some sort of "wieldiness" or "balance" constant from the weapon raws modified by the weapon's quality.  This would allow for much better and more natural handling of oversized weapons (sure, your adventurer can lift that minotaur-scale great axe, but are they strong enough to swing it quickly enough to be useful in combat?), sufficiently large & strong creatures able to dual-wield two-handed weapons of lesser creatures with ease, and so on. 

Toady, how does the movement/combat split affect creature, weapon, etc. raws? 

Are weapon attack speeds entirely based on raw constants, calculated based on a mix of raw constants and internal code, or entirely generated from internal code?

Does weapon quality affect attack speed?

My hope would be that the quality of actual weapons would help their attack speed somewhat (one of the most common positive descriptions of superior-quality real world weapons is some variant of "superbly balanced"), but the quality of non-weapons used to bludgeon things should not make a difference.  This might help with "beaten to death with a sock" problems, as purpose-crafted weapons of any reasonable quality would be distinctly better at being a weapon, and hopefully at some point creatures would be aware of that. 

Will creature movement speed be variable by caste, gender, etc.?
Near-sessile queens and fast-moving drones would be the obvious natural example here, but there are many uses. 

Will movement speed for dwarves be affected primarily by the existing Agility attribute, or will there be a split so that dwarves have differing attributes that control how fast they move and how efficiently they accomplish actions?
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Dae

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2469 on: June 19, 2012, 08:29:11 pm »

hopefully we'll finally be able to have slower-firing but more powerful cranequin-equpped crossbows and the like.

I'd say that's a greenable one on its own right. Toady, will the next changes include a nerfing of crossbows, both overpowered in Fortress mode and on enemies and VERY inconvenient as a beginner adventurer due to the fact you automatically reload right after firing (instead of doing something more useful, like fleeing or dropping your crossbow and pulling out a sword) ?
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Spish

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2470 on: June 20, 2012, 12:11:54 am »

By the end of this update arc, will DF be able to handle all the births and age-related deaths behind the scenes? In other words, if we have a world we spend a lot of time with (like, say, 300 years), will we still have to worry about all the humans dying out from old age after a certain point?

And while we're on the subject of nonlethal combat, are there any plans to reduce the lethality of blows to the head?
So that a heavy fist upside the head would be more likely to just render one unconscious most of the time? It would certainly make hand-to-hand and brawling a lot more fun, IMO.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 11:27:04 am by Spish »
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Bulwersator

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2471 on: June 20, 2012, 01:14:41 am »

will the next changes include a nerfing of crossbows, both overpowered in Fortress mode

[citation needed] - I am not sure is it realistic but it is balanced, it is impossible to kill invaders using crossbows (hurt yes, but killing is almost impossible). I can even say that it is one of few examples where DF is balanced.
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Cruxador

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2472 on: June 20, 2012, 03:35:14 am »

Oh boy! Now all we need is attack speed slowdown in the weapon raws, and crossbows will stop acting like Gatling guns. It'll be nice to see them acting a bit more reasonable.
If we get mounts in Dwarf mode with this update,
This is pretty unlikely since adding interfaces to Dwarf Mode is unrelated to the stuff he's been working on and talking about.
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Dae

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2473 on: June 20, 2012, 06:41:26 am »

will the next changes include a nerfing of crossbows, both overpowered in Fortress mode

[citation needed] - I am not sure is it realistic but it is balanced, it is impossible to kill invaders using crossbows (hurt yes, but killing is almost impossible). I can even say that it is one of few examples where DF is balanced.

If there isn't any way of defending yourself against an invader usign a crossbow, no matter how well-prepared you are, then it's not balanced. I don't agree with that statement anyway.

My point was more concerned with Adventure mode.
There when you fire with a bow or a crossbow, you stand still for several turns unable to do anything to simulate the "reload". So you can't carry a crossbow around, fire a shot at an enemy when you see one then drop it immediately to unsheath yout sword and, after the fight is over, reload your crossbow.
It's also annoying that your fire rate using a crossbow is severely lowered if you take a blow to the ankle (although that can be explained by saying you typically need to be standing when you reload a crossbow).
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Chthonic

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2474 on: June 20, 2012, 12:11:50 pm »

. . . it is impossible to kill invaders using crossbows (hurt yes, but killing is almost impossible). I can even say that it is one of few examples where DF is balanced.

If you are not laying waste to entire sieges with crossbows, that just means you need moar crossbows.
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