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[JWNoctis]

To Immortal: That depends.

If we have to manually designate all the rubble for dumping just to stop the mining process from getting stalled, with an additional thousands of stacks of rubble cluttering the memory, I will stop playing too.

Or, if wheelbarrow-and-shovel equipped dwarves will automatically collect and carry the rubble to the nearest loading station, which routes to an ore selecting station then a designated landfill by rail which then proceeds to turn these clutter into terrain, with barely a slowdown and a whole lot more depth, then I'm all for it -- At least this will give all those idling and freeloading meeting room potatoes something useful to do.

As for early forts, there always are wheelbarrows. I oppose unnecessary micromanagements, and support more depth, especially on some fundamental mechanics that's still somewhat simple like mining.

Just my 2 cents.

EDIT: Wording.

[Abramul]

Far as rubble goes, I'd favor a strong incentive to clear it (not complete blockage, but say 90% reduction in movement speed through rubbled squares) coupled with easy automation of removal.  Ideal would be the ability to designate a minecart track on unknown stone, with dig->haul->engrave handled automatically.  Probably slower than present, but you'd have the option to conveniently set up a mining path, or ignore it and just make a passage that'll slow everyone down, as desired.

Something else you want to look at is whether rubble would be every square, with some of it resolving into usable stone, or only the 25% drop rate that common stone will get; if it's 25%, a 3x3 passage would probably end up with no blockages.

+edit:  Also, I'd suggest allowing stone blocks to be dyed.  Vegetable dyes might not actually work for this, but that's fine.

[Sizik]

Here's what I think:

Two different designations: Mining and Quarrying. Mining produces rubble instead of stone. Rubble can be used to build walls, smelt metal, pave roads, and make crafts. Gems dug by mining will always be small when cut.

Quarrying works like mining does now, except when an unskilled dwarf would produce nothing, they produce rubble instead. Stone are as they are now, except slower to carry by hand and to walk over. Ore stones produce the same amount of bars as ore rubble. Quarried gems have the chance to be cut into large gems and crafts.

[KillHour]

I don't think you make a good case, here... Evil clouds have one real purpose: The surface is deadly - dig down, dig down immediately, and never come back up.  All caravans and migrants are done for. 

I'm going to pick on this, specifically.

If you can't come back up once you've dug your initial hole, what do you do with the rubble you excavate?

[Abramul]

I don't think you make a good case, here... Evil clouds have one real purpose: The surface is deadly - dig down, dig down immediately, and never come back up.  All caravans and migrants are done for. 

I'm going to pick on this, specifically.

If you can't come back up once you've dug your initial hole, what do you do with the rubble you excavate?

Cavern it.  Which, in turn, means you can't just wall the caverns off.

[KillHour]

I don't think you make a good case, here... Evil clouds have one real purpose: The surface is deadly - dig down, dig down immediately, and never come back up.  All caravans and migrants are done for. 

I'm going to pick on this, specifically.

If you can't come back up once you've dug your initial hole, what do you do with the rubble you excavate?

Cavern it.  Which, in turn, means you can't just wall the caverns off.

Good luck getting to the caverns before your whole party dies to a giant panda zombie.  Especially if your miner needs to carry the rock out after every square.

[Abramul]

I don't think you make a good case, here... Evil clouds have one real purpose: The surface is deadly - dig down, dig down immediately, and never come back up.  All caravans and migrants are done for. 

I'm going to pick on this, specifically.

If you can't come back up once you've dug your initial hole, what do you do with the rubble you excavate?

Cavern it.  Which, in turn, means you can't just wall the caverns off.

Good luck getting to the caverns before your whole party dies to a giant panda zombie.  Especially if your miner needs to carry the rock out after every square.

That reminds me.  Could something be done about trap-immune unkillable zombie kobold hands?  (Not strictly unkillable, but they can't be damaged to the point of non-resurrection)

[Manveru Taurënér]

Maybe it'd be better to use another term for it than rubble? The word rubble itself has a lot of negative connotation to many people, and when they hear the word they just think of its negative aspect of being in the way. Maybe if we just separated it into small rocks, large rocks and boulders (small rocks being sorta equivalent to rubble or whatever you want to call it, and then separate the various items you can construct out of rock to use the different sizes. The smaller rocks would be used for rough roads, crafts and if flux/ore for smelting and more, and the other sizes for other appropriately sized items (blocks, mechanisms for medium sized rocks, statues for large etc). All sizes would obstruct movement to some degree and need to be moved, but they'd all still be useful. The larger ones could be broken down to smaller parts if need be, and the smaller rocks would be stackable and storable in bins to avoid to much item bloat.

[Abysium]

Ruble seems a problematic topic for many,
but I think it could be done in a way that would keep everyone happy with adding to the game mechanic.

1)designating it to be cleaned is BAD, rather it should be designated automaticaly if there exists a valid stockpille
1.1)not cleaning it up (via not having a proper stockpille set up) should slow down the movement of dwarves, but not 100%obstruct it, as that would in a way be stupid since dwarves would mine themselves in and couldnt get out
2)there should be a special stockpile for ruble, since that would basicaly be gravel, it only makes sense to pile it up high
3)the question about ruble is really 'how could we use it?' gravel roads, gravel walls?, cement?, landfill
3.1) landfill: i propose a new designation job, an order that when issued would make dwarves haul gravel from its stockpille to the designated area and chuck it in untill its full, (an opposite of 'channel'). Such a tile should as such again be treated as a normal full tile my the game (which in theory should be minable again)
3.2) advanced use of landfill: filling up aquifers?

a totaly off thought: it would be great if dwarves could carry dirt(earth) in buckets or wheelbarells, to designated tiles, which would enable growing forests or farms on constructed floors (maybe just carry mud?)

anyways thats my 2 cents

[Askot Bokbondeler]

just wanted to say i want rubble not because i'd have a use for it, but because of the logistic challenges it'd bring. i want it as an enemy, not an ally. i'd also like if mining was slowed down to a believable rate.
i'd like if mining a tile was done in 3 phases, each producing an heavy object pile of rubble that a dwarf would automatically haul using a handcart to a defined zone, and when a stack of 3 rubble items were on the same tile it'd recombine into a natural wall tile called pile of rubble. couple that with realistic sand physics and it's a dream come true.
stone furniture and building blocks should be themselves quarried from a natural stone wall. i think boulders should be removed from game, instead a mechanism could be implemented to move single blocks of natural stone wall using rollers, tracks or rafts and water courses

[bombzero]

i'd also like if mining was slowed down to a believable rate.

.... actually, the current calender makes a entire year play out in a matter of minutes, so mining's rates are not too extreme.

you are actually saying you want the entire game slowed down, as right now skilled miners only get a few meters of stone dug out a in game day.

[MrWiggles]

i'd also like if mining was slowed down to a believable rate.

.... actually, the current calender makes a entire year play out in a matter of minutes, so mining's rates are not too extreme.

you are actually saying you want the entire game slowed down, as right now skilled miners only get a few meters of stone dug out a in game day.

Yea, I always found this sorta of request curious. We're told that Fort Mode is 72x faster then Aventure Mode. So, if roughly a 100 times slower (because who can imagine something 72x slower?), then that its 'actual' time, and thats not terribly fast.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

a few metres^3 of stone in a day with a steel pick...

[bombzero]

working nearly 24/7 just swinging at the wall with it.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

i doubt you'd be able to mine one full cubic meter of any but the softer stones in 24 hours using 19th century tools, even if you didn't have to clear away the rubble