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[Rinin_Rus]

I doubt it, since using a dump for anything that doesn't involve getting rid of stuff is an exploit.

But he does want to get rid of stuff. The only other way I can imagine is a "floating stockpile", so they can float in the air like zones, so you can use a volcano as a stockpile. Stockpiles allow for quality-of-stuff, and can be set to take from other piles...

Stockpiles behaving like zones is a good idea in general, come to think of it. It makes a lot more sense. And having a good idea usually means someone else already thought of it and Footkerchief is on his way to point that and the downsides-why-it-isn't-implemented-yet out to me

I already found another way, single tile rooms permits only one dwarf to come, with stockpile tile and self-cleaning system, which use water to move garbage from stockpile tile and atom smasher to disintegrate it. But it's way to complicated, because large fortress needs a lot of such stockpiles and every single use takes about 250 time units.

Why those dwarfs can simply drop their stuff into magma?

[NW_Kohaku]

Auto-dumping minecarts sound reasonable, the mechanics behind that are trivial form the once i have seen. Althought i could see 2 types of minecarts, the basic one and one hat needs an additional mechanism to get auto-dump. I refer to carts like this or this that are supendedon on an axle.

Yeah, I figured that just putting a handle off on the side of that type of cart would be enough - you make a wedge facing the direction the cart comes from, so that when the cart hits the wedge, it pushes the handle upward and tips the cart over as the carriage rolls by, and then drops back down when you go past the wedge. 

If we have auto-dumping, powered rollers, and an ability to fill a cart by just dumping into the tile of the cart, we could have full automation cart cycles.

To resolve the problem of megaprojects needing stones, how about tweaking the make blocks reaction?

One boulder makes four blocks.

This also means there's actually a point to making block walls instead of rough stone walls.

This is a good solution - making the smaller (and more numerous) economically valuable stone types simply made on demand. 

That said, I would still prefer waste rubble that has stacking as a logistical matter. 

[NW_Kohaku]

This seems like a tough call.  Keeping out rubble is good IMO, but, yeah, mining doesn't have any drawbacks or dangers.  The current overhaul sounds like a great logistical addition, so I agree with not adding even more things to manage in that respect.  But what you say, Kohaku, about a structural or environmental challenge would be good.  More things to manage, but in a different facet of the mining experience.

Maybe I should work on a suggestion thread, then, to tackle "making rubble a net positive". 

Just from curiosity, if we did have rubble that had to be cleared before mining further into a stone face had to take place, but it was capable of being carried away someplace where you didn't have to worry about it anymore (dumped off-map, atom-smashed, landfilled) simply by having a few hauler dwarves dedicated to clearing rubble or simply by extending your cart tracks a few more tiles, would people still be opposed if it took no particular effort on the part of the player to clean it all up? 

Or in other words, do the people who oppose rubble oppose having to clean it up, (and hence, would not be opposed if cleaning were almost totally automated,) or oppose it for other reasons? 

How many are opposed to just plain anything that slows mining down for any reason, and like the fast burrowing speeds?

If I'm going to be suggesting something that makes as many happy as possible, I'm not entirely sure what it is people are actually after...

I tend to get the impression that some people are actually just unhappy with change in general.  They might be OK with adding honeybees that do nothing to change most of the game or bugfixes, but don't want the game to actually become more advanced or complex, and want it to stay "legos with ants that move them around" forever. 

[Rinin_Rus]

How many are opposed to just plain anything that slows mining down for any reason, and like the fast burrowing speeds?

It could be nice, but only after any changes, which makes constructing outside much easier, not before.

[Triaxx2]

Pumping carts out would be a pretty simple task to work with if liquids changed cart weights and pressure plates could be placed under tracks.

Put a stop in and a pressure plate in the track, with one of the rope/chain Mechanisms to start it again. If it's empty, it doesn't trigger the pressure plate, and keeps going without a hitch. But if it's full of water/magma, it both turns off the Mechanism, and activates the pump. This draws out the water, then when the weight is no longer enough to trigger the pressure plates, the cart is pulled back into motion and continues on it's way.

An alternate method is to have a line of 8-10 single pumps pumping above the tracks, from the track into an empty space above. As the cart passes by, the pumps draw up the water through it, and pump into the empty space, sending it on it's way. Potentially into a 3/7 reservoir to minimize evaporation.

[Keldane]

How many are opposed to just plain anything that slows mining down for any reason, and like the fast burrowing speeds?

-raises hand- I'm very much a fan of being able to dig out a large area rapidly. Often, I find that having multiple legendary miners working on the same project just doesn't get it done fast enough for my liking already, so adding anything that forced them to work more slowly would frustrate me regardless of whether or not I had to manually do anything to clean it up.

[Sunday]

Hmmm. I feel like it might be cool to make mining harder, but it should be harder in a "have to think about ways to work around the limitations" way, rather than just "another subsystem that adds a lot of micromanagement" way.

Rubble seems like that latter—it makes mining more onerous, in that it goes slower and takes more time, but it doesn't make it more interesting.

Cave-ins would be a better solution, IMO, if it were possible to do it in an interesting way. That way it forces you to actually think about how to deal with it in laying out your fort, rather than (as with rubble), just ensuring that things progress more slowly.

[greenskye]

Or in other words, do the people who oppose rubble oppose having to clean it up, (and hence, would not be opposed if cleaning were almost totally automated,) or oppose it for other reasons? 

How many are opposed to just plain anything that slows mining down for any reason, and like the fast burrowing speeds?

I think one of the difficulties with this is the fact that I generally want mining out a room to go as quickly as possible, but don't mind significant slow downs if I'm actually mining for a resource. Especially if my mining operation can be made more efficient and more automated over time.

I would generally like to see a move towards requiring some sort of dedicated mining operation, but I can understand why others might not like that idea.

[Quatch]

As part of the flying minecart physics, did you decide on a tile size?

Assuming gravity works like real world gravity and you can invent a time unit (obviously not linked to the dwarf mode calendar, which moves too fast for this), then a choice has been made.  It wouldn't make any fewer dragons fit in the tile though.  I think for the purposes of the minecarts it turned out to be 2m x 2m x 3m with 10 clicks / second, but it isn't that important or far-ranging in effect.

Thanks. I'm not trying to pin you into any sort of paradox, and I'm fine with the simplification of the game allowing many things in the same spot. It just seemed like it was a possibility to have it finally answered when physics went in.

I am curious why those values were chosen. Although they are pretty much the 2m cube I was expecting, there is probably a interesting reason.

[Manveru Taurënér]

I don't really mind if stuff slowed down somewhat, and would probably adapt regardless of which method was chosen. However I would really, really like to see it implemented in some way that makes mining always generae something, just so it doesn't just magically clear a way into the mountain when mining with a low skilled miner. Maybe just something simple like 3 size categories with higher skilled miners being able to mine out larger blocks more often and faster, which could be used for larger constructions/statues etc and also be broken down into the smaller categories.

As for a question, will you be leaving mining like this just for this release and then finish it during the cirrent bugfixing/improvement cycle, or will it be left indefinitely until you know what to do and find the time to finish it during later arc portions?

[eux0r]

-snip-
If I'm going to be suggesting something that makes as many happy as possible, I'm not entirely sure what it is people are actually after...
-snap-

i vote for the game to be as complex and realistic(or rather consequent inside its own frame of rules, i dont want to exclude magic and stuff by saying "realistic"). more rubble/conservation of mass/energy. more cave-ins and structural challenges. more of everything!

[thvaz]

If only stone in the ground slowed anyone who passed through it, we would have a reason to remove them, and I would be happy. As it is now, you can just hide then, and you wouldn't ever need to use the awesome cart mechanics Toady spent a month with.

[Hanslanda]

Would it be terribly difficult or time consuming to add a line to descriptions of creatures that went, 'He/she/it is facing N/NW/SSW'?

But that's pretty minor, I'm just curious.

[BinaryBeast1010011010]

Is that... A SUGGESTION?
Ha! You are surprised? Fair enough, for
No one expects the spanish inquisition!

[Lac]

As part of the flying minecart physics, did you decide on a tile size?

Assuming gravity works like real world gravity and you can invent a time unit (obviously not linked to the dwarf mode calendar, which moves too fast for this), then a choice has been made.  It wouldn't make any fewer dragons fit in the tile though.  I think for the purposes of the minecarts it turned out to be 2m x 2m x 3m with 10 clicks / second, but it isn't that important or far-ranging in effect.

This is a missed opportunity to define the dimensions of a tile once and for all, in terms of the speed of a dwarven minecart (fully laden), rather than metres; which would seem nice and dwarven to me