Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Mel_Vixen]

Hehe if you have any Job that requires a Computer and a considerable amount of creativity your hardware is constantly at the brink of death. Thats just the genereal anti-technological field of creative people. Artists kill tablets and graphic-cards, Musicians Soundcards and speakers, programmers HDDs and CPUs, heck i know a writer who did go through 5 leopards in 2 years. Naturally you often find mixed types.

  and i know this is unscientific.

Anyway good to see that toady is on track again, after the last devblog i was actually expecting the next version. Well got to wait some more days then.

[Kogut]

"As a legendary thrower, I can throw arrows from a long range and routinely chip bones, pierce hearts, and pierce skulls and brains." - is it a bug (IMHO this problem is so severe that it qualifies as a bug like #3992) or a feature request? I am asking as bug 5684 was closed as "Requests for balance changes generally go in the Suggestions forum.".

[Cruxador]

"As a legendary thrower, I can throw arrows from a long range and routinely chip bones, pierce hearts, and pierce skulls and brains." - is it a bug or a feature request? I am asking as bug 5684 was closed as "Requests for balance changes generally go in the Suggestions forum.".

That would be a request for balance change. You can tell because it was closed with the reason "Requests for balance changes generally go in the Suggestions forum.".

[MrWiggles]

There was no need for the snide ending remark.

But... if it was closed as a feature change request, then I'm gonna also agree that it's not a bug, but a feature change request.

[Kogut]

if it was closed as a feature change request, then I'm gonna also agree that it's not a bug, but a feature change request.

I added "IMHO this problem is so severe that it qualifies as a bug like #3992".

[MrWiggles]

if it was closed as a feature change request, then I'm gonna also agree that it's not a bug, but a feature change request.

I added "IMHO this problem is so severe that it qualifies as a bug like #3992".

If it's functioning as intended, then no amount of wishing will change it into a bug. A bug is when something isn't working as intended.

EDIT:
Also, this seems to be one of those quirky features that seen as more fun then game distrupting.

[Knight Otu]

Balance changes tread a fine line between bugfix and feature request. They can go either way, really. In the particular example, I would say that it is more of a feature request (I might have given it the benefit of doubt, though), in that it really depends on the ammunition if it is a suitable throwing weapon. An arrow may not be, a sling stone however... so that would be a feature to distinguish suitability for throwing between ammunition classes, and that leads to the question were the other item types are in that regard. (It kind of also intersects with the idea of supernatural fighting styles - a throwing-based supernatural fighting style could well include throwing arrows in a deadly fashion)

[Mel_Vixen]

Not to mention that there are specialized thrown weapons like knives, "stars" and darts. The later show some similiarity to bolts. I for one would pack this change into a (hopefully coming) weapon overhaul if anywhere.

[Quietust]

heck i know a writer who did go through 5 leopards in 2 years.

I see what you did there.

[Caldfir]

We should also bear in mind here that in DF "LEGENDARY" means just that - if you're a LEGENDARY dodger, you're pretty much Neo, and LEGENDARY masons can carve a masterwork stone table from a heap of rubble in less than a day using nothing but their bare hands. 

If middling throwers are routinely lobbing off peaople's limbs when tossing arrows about, then yeah, that'd be a bug, but you really can't look at the upper echelons of the skills to determine if something is functioning properly or not, because they are all representative of pretty much superhuman ability. 

In any case, that's all likely to be overhauled the next time combat gets looked at, which will be... sometime in the future.  A lot will probably change along with the combat/move speed split, and really, if you're looking for a problem with the current combat system, than that's it right there.  Until then, camels will be deadly ninjas, which is in my mind a much larger issue than imbalance in the throwing skill. 

[NW_Kohaku]

That would be a request for balance change. You can tell because it was closed with the reason "Requests for balance changes generally go in the Suggestions forum.".

The difference is, Footkerchief declared it a balance change, and Kogut is now trying to get Toady's opinion.  As in, Kogut wants a second opinion. 

Of course, I doubt Kogut would be bothering with such a thing if suggestions were acted upon with anything approaching the frequency of bug reports, but with the way that Bay12 works, getting things into the bug tracker or not is the difference between whether there is any chance they will ever be worked on or not.

Balance changes tread a fine line between bugfix and feature request. They can go either way, really. In the particular example, I would say that it is more of a feature request (I might have given it the benefit of doubt, though), in that it really depends on the ammunition if it is a suitable throwing weapon. An arrow may not be, a sling stone however... so that would be a feature to distinguish suitability for throwing between ammunition classes, and that leads to the question were the other item types are in that regard. (It kind of also intersects with the idea of supernatural fighting styles - a throwing-based supernatural fighting style could well include throwing arrows in a deadly fashion)

There's a difference between something that is simply a balance change, and things that are bizarre and unrealistic in a game that strives to have some realism.  When you can do things like throw vomit that caves in skulls, and a human hand throws things with more force than a weapon specifically designed to project weapons with more force than a human hand possibly can on its own, then it starts getting into the realm of "bug". 

That's why there was a comparison to the super-valuable beehive bug.

[Footkerchief]

Of course, I doubt Kogut would be bothering with such a thing if suggestions were acted upon with anything approaching the frequency of bug reports, but with the way that Bay12 works, getting things into the bug tracker or not is the difference between whether there is any chance they will ever be worked on or not.

I don't think it's that simple.  Thousands of bugs have been lying around for years, and many suggestions have been implemented during that time.

There's a difference between something that is simply a balance change, and things that are bizarre and unrealistic in a game that strives to have some realism.  When you can do things like throw vomit that caves in skulls, and a human hand throws things with more force than a weapon specifically designed to project weapons with more force than a human hand possibly can on its own, then it starts getting into the realm of "bug". 

That's why there was a comparison to the super-valuable beehive bug.

Vomit that caves in skulls is much more of a bug, since it indicates that liquids/powders are having their material properties misapplied (along with mass and/or contact area being off by an order of magnitude).  Beehive value is also off by at least an order of magnitude.  The launcher vs. throwing issue (at least as presented in the report) is not an order-of-magnitude discrepancy -- the strongest claim made in the report is that "throwing is at least as effective".  As such, this is not unbalanced enough to warrant special attention before the ranged combat overhaul.

Also, ammunition has intrinsic problems that probably make the launching method a moot point.

[NW_Kohaku]

Vomit that caves in skulls is much more of a bug, since it indicates that liquids/powders are having their material properties misapplied (along with mass and/or contact area being off by an order of magnitude).  Beehive value is also off by at least an order of magnitude.  The launcher vs. throwing issue (at least as presented in the report) is not an order-of-magnitude discrepancy -- the strongest claim made in the report is that "throwing is at least as effective".  As such, this problem is not severe enough to warrant special attention before the ranged combat overhaul.  Also, ammunition has intrinsic problems that probably make the launching method a moot point.

Arguing that something is not a large enough magnitude to classify as a bug is something much more fuzzy and gray than arguing that any sort of balance change/static value change is inherently a suggestion, and trying to get a second opinion on something that can be classified more as a judgment call is not something that can be as easily dismissed as Cruxador is trying to say.

I don't think it's that simple.  Thousands of bugs have been lying around for years, and many suggestions have been implemented during that time.

Perhaps there's a case to be made there, but I know what the mood is in this forum.  I've had plenty of posts or PMs telling me that people don't use suggestions because there's obviously no point, and that being sent off to the Suggestion Forum is an oblique way of telling an idea to go die. 

Most people don't even know of one suggestion that has been implemented, or if they do, only know of Underground Diversity.  ESV suggestions have not been worked upon (excepting general FPS optimization), and it basically seems like you can count on one hand the number of suggestions that actually were acted upon. 

If you want to argue against the notion that "Suggestions Are Always Ignored", don't do it to me, do it to the rest of the forums.  I'm the one called weird for even trying to use the Suggestion Forums at all anymore.

[Footkerchief]

Arguing that something is not a large enough magnitude to classify as a bug is something much more fuzzy and gray than arguing that any sort of balance change/static value change is inherently a suggestion [...]

Yes, it's a fuzzy gray area.  Please don't put words in my mouth -- I said "requests for balance changes generally go in the Suggestions forum," because most balance problems are not bug-level.  I did not make an absolute statement like "any sort of balance change."

Perhaps there's a case to be made there, but I know what the mood is in this forum.  I've had plenty of posts or PMs telling me that people don't use suggestions because there's obviously no point, and that being sent off to the Suggestion Forum is an oblique way of telling an idea to go die. 

Most people don't even know of one suggestion that has been implemented, or if they do, only know of Underground Diversity.  ESV suggestions have not been worked upon (excepting general FPS optimization), and it basically seems like you can count on one hand the number of suggestions that actually were acted upon. 

If you want to argue against the notion that "Suggestions Are Always Ignored", don't do it to me, do it to the rest of the forums.  I'm the one called weird for even trying to use the Suggestion Forums at all anymore.

I was arguing against your statement, which you appeared to be making in your own words.

[NW_Kohaku]

Yes, it's a fuzzy gray area.  Please don't put words in my mouth -- I said "requests for balance changes generally go in the Suggestions forum," because most balance problems are not bug-level.  I did not make an absolute statement like "any sort of balance change."


I was arguing against your statement, which you appeared to be making in your own words.

Things are not quite that simple.  I was arguing in justification of Kogut's statement in response to your statement against Cruxador's argument.  There's at least four people in this little dance.

Besides that, though, I suppose there might be some merit to the notion that people are now arguing that even bug reports are pointless.

There is an undercurrent of frustration, bitterness, and negativity on this forum that seriously undercuts much of the creative endeavors, and I see much of that being fed especially by the "face" of Bay 12 in the form of those who are moderators or "old guard" driving people away from the forums, which does not do Toady the service they think they are doing.