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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 3844815 times)

Caldfir

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #270 on: February 27, 2012, 11:53:09 pm »

The real benefit DF adventure mode over another roguelike is that it links with fortress mode. 

I had a world in the previous version where I settled as goblins (one line of modding to make that possible), abandoned, came back on a dwarf adventurer to find a night creature living in the hollowed out hill, killed it, reclaimed as dwarves, and had my first artifact created from the bones of the night creature my adventurer killed.  After playing the fort for ~35 years, an unfortunate sequence of events led to the fort's end at the hands of a combination of forgotten beast blood and goblins.  I came back to the fort on the same adventurer, recruited an antwoman queen from the caverns below the fort, and together we cleaned out the goblins and went on many adventures together. 

Granted, adventure mode kinda sucked at the time, but I would say that my enjoyment of each mode was amplified by achievements I made in the other.  I was once a hard-line fort-mode player, but the narratives you can get from switching back and forth are just too awesome.  The best is if you can manage to get your fort dwarves to create engravings of your adventurer doing adventurestuff. 

Seeing as how that's how the game is intended to be played, I guess I should be a little less surprised at how much fun that is, but hey, there you go. 
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bombzero

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #271 on: February 28, 2012, 12:00:43 am »

holy shit, imagine once forts can be 'retired' and picked up again, handled by an AI in the meantime. (future goal for the uninformed.)

you could make a 10 year fort, retire it, make an adventurer that started from your civ at the fort, which will eventually be taken from a local pool anyways (i.e. your dwarfs from fort mode.)
setting out on a legendary journey slaying that gobbo general that killed your best hammerlord, than returning home and retiring, than having that dwarf back at work when you pick up again in fort mode.
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Rafal99

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #272 on: February 28, 2012, 03:11:35 am »

Toady MENTIONED fixing screens to support dimensions larger than 80x25!
Makes me happy :)
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Cruxador

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #273 on: February 28, 2012, 04:23:47 am »

Toady MENTIONED fixing screens to support dimensions larger than 80x25!
Makes me happy :)
Yeah, I'd quite like to use more of the space I have available.
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RadHazard

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #274 on: February 28, 2012, 07:44:27 am »

Is it sad that I'm just as exited for >80x25 support and the fixing of the TrueType not overwritting properly as I was for some of the previous bugfixes? :P

Thanks for all the great work you've been doing, Toady One and Baughn!
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gimli

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #275 on: February 28, 2012, 07:48:59 am »

If I want to play a roguelike I have tons of games to choose from. [My favourite is ToME4 by far..] If I want to manage a dwarven city [IE Fortress Mode] I only have 1 game on the list: Dwarf Fortress.

This is a completely rigged comparision.  Allow me to turn it around for you:
If I wanted to manage a city I'd have tons of games to choose from, but if I wanted to play a rougelike with plump helmets I have only one game on the list: Adventure Mode.

And even that's missing the point, fort mode is much different than any other city sim or rts in existance, just like adventure mode is much different than any other rougelike, even in this early stage.  Both are unique, but one has gotten a lot of work from Toady and the other is sorely neglected.

You don't have to turn anything. I am absolutely sure, that the vast majority of the Bay12 fans are preferring Fortress mode over adventure mode. Fortress mode offers unique gameplay, adventure mode is not. I am not saying that it's bad or something, but we have tons of roguelikes anyway...at one point DF Adventure mode will be awesome, that is for sure, but still....fortress mode will be much more important to most of the Bay12 fans. Fortress mode made the game well known and famous.

Basically this is why many people are pissed about the new version. No love regarding fortress mode since a hella long time...and that is one thing. The biggest problem is: We won't see any serious updates in fortress mode for a hella long time. AFAIK Toady plans to keep working on adventure mode still, but even if he wouldn't when is the next major version coming? 1 year? More? So fortress mode was last enhanced in 2010 and it won't be touched 'til at least 2013++. That is 3+ years without any serious updates for fortress mode. I always knew that this game won't reach 1.0 ever, but this is kinda embarassing...

Anyway let's go on-topic, it's pointless to talk about this anyway, since DF is Toady's baby and the game is free basically.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 07:56:14 am by gimli »
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jellsprout

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #276 on: February 28, 2012, 08:37:06 am »

The next series of updates will include improved economy, inns, fairs, 3D ore veins, combat speed split and mounted combat improvements. All of this will influence Fortress Mode. Release 6 is even dedicated purely to Fortress Mode.
Furthermore, this release featured the Undead, Evil mists and rains and a ton of new animals. The change isn't as big as between 40d and .31, but Fortress Mode has most definitely been improved this release and will keep getting improved the next few releases.
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Immacolata

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #277 on: February 28, 2012, 08:52:31 am »

Who, 'bout of Entitlement Syndrome just hit. I wonder if it comes as Mist or Rain.

Anyways, thanks for the update, though I am also in the Fortress Mode camp, and Im going to sit on my hands on this release. My question concerns stockpiles. One of my biggest problems as player is to get some sort of clear map of their relationships as my fortress grows. I learn and optimise over time, but I somehow miss some kind of visual identification, or a bit of transparency in their inner workings. This isn't terribly concise, but it boils down to this: I find stockpiles difficult to plan and keep my overivew of. Most of my forts are disbanded because of stockpile woes.

Are there any grand plans for how Fortress Mode stockpiles are managed, or some kind of visual identifier, UI something, Grand View? Anything that will make it a sporadic plan-as-you-go player feel more empowered when handling stockpiles?

« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 08:54:27 am by Immacolata »
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blue sam3

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #278 on: February 28, 2012, 11:47:59 am »

I think the total is closer to about a third than 11%.

That's not how maths works. 0.01 < P < 0.1. The exact value of P will depend on the percentage of the total code base that deals with fortress mode, adventure mode and both. If we take your figure of the overall figure being 1/3, that means that adventure mode is somewhere below that, and fortress mode somewhere above it, though exactly where is unclear without further information.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #279 on: February 28, 2012, 02:45:35 pm »

A thing about people predicting what will be in "the next few releases": You really don't know when Toady is going to complete something or get around to some other thing.  Maybe I'm just too much a pessimist, and maybe Toady will finish the remainder of the Caravan Arc in less than a year with time to spare. 

However, people said I was exagerrating and melodramatic a year ago when I said that each step along the way of the Caravan Arc would take Toady "at least 2 months per release" when the assumption was each release would take about a month.  Ten months after that date, he's released one of those Caravan Arc releases, and spent a large amount of time working on a project that was never part of the "short-term" development pages.  We're already at the point in time people were predicting the Caravan Arc would be complete just a year ago.

That's hardly to say that adding interactions was a terrible thing or that they aren't progress, but it is to say that these predictions about what dev goals will have been fulfilled 5 months or 5 years down the road are rarely ever accurate.

It's entirely possible that 5 years down the road, we will have seen no major features for Fortress Mode added.  (Features being different from content.)

It is rather strange to claim that caravan arc releases will come in rapid succession, while taking the time to do the likes of Standing Production Orders will "take at least a year".



People keep using the word "entitlement" as though it shuts down any argument.  Before assuming that if a term with a negative connotation can fit, that it automatically should be seen exclusively as negative, perhaps consider that entitlement is a critical part of the relationship between consumer and producer. 

What sort of world would we live in if customers did not feel entitled to having the food the get from stores be fresh and safe, the appliances they buy actually work or at least be covered by warranty, and games at least reasonably function as advertised? 

If we are to support this game through our funding, I don't think it entirely unreasonable that we have some influence over its direction.  If Toady took the donation drive animals so seriously that he would not only work to make sure that all of the animals were in the game within a reasonable time of when the donation drive was over, but that he would go above and beyond to stop and spend months on making individual animals unique specifically because he felt that the money he took in exchange for that meant he owed the people who gave him that money the effort to make the animals special, that shows he really did care about what it meant for those people to donate. 

Sure, it gummed up the release schedule, but it is hardly a terrible thing that Toady feels the people who donated asking for specific animals were entitled to his time and effort in making them special and unique animals.

Is it really such a terrible thing that other people might want to donate money in a way that makes them feel entitled to ask for a priority change so that their player priorities are given more weight?  Why can't the people donating asking about data management interface features be added earlier so that the game isn't so micromanagement-heavy be given the same sense of entitlement the animal donators get?

Simply throwing around terms like "entitled" or "nerd rage" to summarily dismiss the concerns of others without ever discussing the merits of their critiques does not make you the one "keeping their perspective" in the argument, and only creates further frustration and resentment as it creates an environment where people are laughed at and insulted for their complaints that their arguments are not heard.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #280 on: February 28, 2012, 03:26:45 pm »

People keep using the word "entitlement" as though it shuts down any argument.  Before assuming that if a term with a negative connotation can fit, that it automatically should be seen exclusively as negative, perhaps consider that entitlement is a critical part of the relationship between consumer and producer. 

What sort of world would we live in if customers did not feel entitled to having the food the get from stores be fresh and safe, the appliances they buy actually work or at least be covered by warranty, and games at least reasonably function as advertised? 

If we are to support this game through our funding, I don't think it entirely unreasonable that we have some influence over its direction.  If Toady took the donation drive animals so seriously that he would not only work to make sure that all of the animals were in the game within a reasonable time of when the donation drive was over, but that he would go above and beyond to stop and spend months on making individual animals unique specifically because he felt that the money he took in exchange for that meant he owed the people who gave him that money the effort to make the animals special, that shows he really did care about what it meant for those people to donate. 

Sure, it gummed up the release schedule, but it is hardly a terrible thing that Toady feels the people who donated asking for specific animals were entitled to his time and effort in making them special and unique animals.

Is it really such a terrible thing that other people might want to donate money in a way that makes them feel entitled to ask for a priority change so that their player priorities are given more weight?  Why can't the people donating asking about data management interface features be added earlier so that the game isn't so micromanagement-heavy be given the same sense of entitlement the animal donators get?

Simply throwing around terms like "entitled" or "nerd rage" to summarily dismiss the concerns of others without ever discussing the merits of their critiques does not make you the one "keeping their perspective" in the argument, and only creates further frustration and resentment as it creates an environment where people are laughed at and insulted for their complaints that their arguments are not heard.

Animal sponsorship donations means that the donator is entitled to be able to play a vanilla version of DF that includes the animal.  Special abilities are strictly a bonus -- they were never guaranteed for all animals.  Emphasis mine:
Quote from: devlog
Since it is impossible to add new abilities for all of them in a timely fashion, and we've just rolled passed the one year anniversary, I'm just going to release them in basic form (with giant and person versions) to satisfy the basic inclusion requirement, and then work with them from there in subsequent releases.

Normal (non-sponsorship) donations entitle Bay 12 Games to the money, and the donator to the hope that their money will keep Bay 12 afloat.  That's it.  Donators are not consumers, and Bay 12 is not selling a product.  Comparisons to commercial enterprise are invalid from the start.

The reason I made reference to Impaler[WrG] was not that I think you're going to start a ripoff project.  It's that fans of DF (and probably other projects) follow one of several arcs, kind of like stellar evolution.  One of those arcs involves entitlement, loss of perspective, and a highly charged attitude toward the course of development.  Cf. murlocdummy.

People aren't telling you to chill out because they think each of your statements is wrong.  It's because your true/accurate/insightful points are surrounded by hysteria.

In short, don't play DF or donate to Bay 12 if doing so, on the balance, gives you negative feelings.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 03:41:56 pm by Footkerchief »
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eataTREE

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #281 on: February 28, 2012, 03:42:03 pm »

Is it really such a terrible thing that other people might want to donate money in a way that makes them feel entitled to ask for a priority change so that their player priorities are given more weight? 
It probably doesn't qualify as a terrible thing but they're not right to feel that way.

Toady does not work for you. Period, full stop. You are not his customer, there is no contract explicit or implied between you, he does not owe you anything, period the end.

Toady makes Dwarf Fortress. He asks for donations. You voluntarily chose to give him one. In return, insofar as you got anything, you got Dwarf Fortress: not the idealized Dwarf Fortress in your head, but the real Dwarf Fortress as it exists today. Toady did not incur any sort of obligation to create your version of Dwarf Fortress or do any other thing (except give you a crayon drawing) by taking the money that you volunarily proffered. Yes you have a right to express your opinion, but you've already expressed it, and now have to get on with accepting the fact that Dwarf Fortress will continue to be developed the way Toady wants and not the way you want.

This is not any sort of fanboyism. If it were my game I would do many things differently, choosing to focus on an engaging fortress mode experience at the expense of depth and realism. But it's not my game, and giving Toady money doesn't make it my game; it's Toady's game and it will be developed according to Toady's vision. Ultimately we have to take it or leave it, and I find the game, warts and all, to be well worth taking at its attractive price of $0. You are not required to agree; there is a big world with lots of games in it -- many of which are organized as open community projects where decisions are made by consensus. Perhaps one of them is what you are looking for?

Edit: Pronouns, they all look alike.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 05:16:36 pm by eataTREE »
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thvaz

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #282 on: February 28, 2012, 04:00:05 pm »

Sometimes I stop to think if I like to follow DF's development more than to play the game... I play a lot following big releases, and sometimes in between big releases, and I really have fun while doing so, but I check the devlog everyday. It is a great past-time. Toady said somewhere that it will be a fun ride until 1.0; it certainly has been one long fun ride.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #283 on: February 28, 2012, 04:06:33 pm »

Animal sponsorship donations means that the donator is entitled to be able to play a vanilla version of DF that includes the animal.  Special abilities are strictly a bonus -- they were never guaranteed for all animals.

And that was entirely reasonable.  He declared he would add an animal if you donated, and did as he promised, and as I said, he felt the need to go above and beyond on some of those, and that is a great thing that he felt the desire to go out of his way to make some of the animals that he could spend the time on more than just copy-pastes, but given unique and special functionality in the game.

I am saying that's the example of Toady going out of his way to reward his donators that should be most encouraged.

As in, that was a compliment, not a complaint.

The reason I made reference to Impaler[WrG] was not that I think you're going to start a ripoff project.  It's that fans of DF (and probably other projects) follow one of several arcs, kind of like stellar evolution.  One of those arcs involves entitlement, loss of perspective, and a highly charged attitude toward the course of development.  Cf. murlocdummy.

People aren't telling you to chill out because they think each of your statements is wrong.  It's because your true/accurate/insightful points are surrounded by hysteria.

And that is why I'm making the point of arguing against exactly that sort of attitude.

You are assuming that anyone who gets angry or frustrated will inevitably turn into an element that will somehow try to backstab the community, and use that as a weapon against anyone you are judging to be too "Impaler-like". 

Don't you think that inferring "traitor" on anyone who's already angry instead of trying to address their concerns in a reasonable manner might maybe make the problem worse?  Don't you think the proper manner of dealing with someone who thinks their concerns are not being heard might be to try to assure them in whatever way you can that they are, rather than insulting or mocking them for it, and pushing them to even more anger?

If you're going to try speaking to others as if you somehow carry some weight as a "spokesman of Toady", (and make no mistake, in his absence, that is exactly what mantle you are trying to assume,) that you should actually try diffusing some of that frustration, rather than inflaming it by belittling others or suggesting that you are only waiting for them to "turn traitor"?

In short, don't play DF or donate to Bay 12 if doing so, on the balance, gives you negative feelings.

Nor does it do Toady many favors to start selectively determining who you don't think should be playing or donating.  If you want to try speaking as though you speak for him, at least try to be inclusive, as opposed to openly passing judgment over every single player, and declaring who you deem to be the traitors-to-be.

My problem, once again, is not with Toady.  Toady has never been anything but reasonable in the times I've been able to talk to him, and he has always made me feel that I was being listened to when I did speak to him.  He does not dismiss complaints out of hand.  It is the people who feel they can speak for him that throw down emotionally loaded terms like "entitled" or imply that we are somehow "not fan enough" on anyone asking to be heard that I have a problem with.



This is not any sort of fanboyism.

I was going to let this one get buried, but this keeps coming up.  So, for the record, I was using the term "fanboy" in response specifically to thvaz, and I was only doing so in specific response to his "nerd rage" statement.

The point (which, granted, was very poorly articulated due to my emotional status at the time, and a lapse in judgement,) was that using a pejorative term to summarily dismiss one person's argument is just as easy to be turned around on someone else.  That is, if my statement can be easily dismissed as "nerd rage", his defenses of the game can be just as easily dismissed as "fanboyism".
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 04:14:14 pm by NW_Kohaku »
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
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Scarpa

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #284 on: February 28, 2012, 04:10:06 pm »

Don't you think the proper manner of dealing with someone who thinks their concerns are not being heard might be to try to assure them in whatever way you can that they are, rather than insulting or mocking them for it, and pushing them to even more anger?

The bolded part is just wrong, IMO. Being angry over your 'concerns not being heard' is delusional and the correct response is not to validate that delusion.

To be clear, I mean 'delusional' in the literal sense, as in 'having false or unrealistic beliefs or opinions' and is not meant as a personal attack on you. I firmly believe that a) concerns are heard, although not at the level most would like and b) being angry over it is wrong.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 04:12:53 pm by Scarpa »
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