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[smjjames]

Oh, I doubt it. Dwarves are still plenty expendable if you're careful.

What would be a major game-changer is dwarves going batshit if they're kept from fulfilling a life dream. And new forms of batshittery, too- dwarven mass murderers who decide, one day, to steal a crossbow from the fort armory and start shooting at random in the meeting hall; dwarves who get a revelation from God and turn your fort into Jonestown; dwarves who try to start revolutions, or refuse to participate in fortress life.

Arent moods a form of life dream? Or at least those could connect into moods.

Moods will definetly still be around, but seems like the dreams and personalities would change the way moods work.

Heck, we should start seeing emergent behavior soon maybe, what with all the interactions and the new personalities stuff, etc.

[Anatoli]

Oh, I doubt it. Dwarves are still plenty expendable if you're careful. However, since we are running a simulation of true communism, the introduction of original sin could pose new and interesting problems- probably not now, but later on, once Toady has done a few more releases.

What would be a major game-changer is dwarves going batshit if they're kept from fulfilling a life dream. And new forms of batshittery, too- dwarven mass murderers who decide, one day, to steal a crossbow from the fort armory and start shooting at random in the meeting hall; dwarves who get a revelation from God and turn your fort into Jonestown; dwarves who try to start revolutions, or refuse to participate in fortress life.

I was more talking about the idea of how being in a society is like wearing a mask. We all pretend to be something better than we are, but in truth, our personalities are much more extreme and repugnant. (Examples: Racism, Domestic Abuse, and Sexual Harrasment. Something we don't suspect about people, but is very frequent. And then people get freaked out when the truth comes out and remove him from office. Now imagine being able to see the truth of those things in every human being you meet.)

And the thing about the overseer and technically god of the fortress, is that you get to see beyond the mask. So someone unprepared for this could assume that the game and it's world are very dark, that there are no likable characters, and that it is too depressing. When in reality, the world and overall characters could be the same and even better than in the real world, but because you get to see them with their mask off, they just seem worse by comparison. And then one must learn to give forgiveness (to dwarves for their deeds) and mercy (not punish every crime) to have the best outcome.

This has nothing to do with original sin.

[Neonivek]

We all pretend to be something better than we are, but in truth, our personalities are much more extreme and repugnant.

A Nicer way of saying it is that we all try to be something better then we already are and aspire to be something better.

There is something that is lost with the statement "We all wear a mask" and it is that "We are the mask and the person behind it"

[WillowLuman]

Oh, I doubt it. Dwarves are still plenty expendable if you're careful. However, since we are running a simulation of true communism, the introduction of original sin could pose new and interesting problems- probably not now, but later on, once Toady has done a few more releases.

What would be a major game-changer is dwarves going batshit if they're kept from fulfilling a life dream. And new forms of batshittery, too- dwarven mass murderers who decide, one day, to steal a crossbow from the fort armory and start shooting at random in the meeting hall; dwarves who get a revelation from God and turn your fort into Jonestown; dwarves who try to start revolutions, or refuse to participate in fortress life.

I was more talking about the idea of how being in a society is like wearing a mask. We all pretend to be something better than we are, but in truth, our personalities are much more extreme and repugnant. (Examples: Racism, Domestic Abuse, and Sexual Harrasment. Something we don't suspect about people, but is very frequent. And then people get freaked out when the truth comes out and remove him from office. Now imagine being able to see the truth of those things in every human being you meet.)

And the thing about the overseer and technically god of the fortress, is that you get to see beyond the mask. So someone unprepared for this could assume that the game and it's world are very dark, that there are no likable characters, and that it is too depressing. When in reality, the world and overall characters could be the same and even better than in the real world, but because you get to see them with their mask off, they just seem worse by comparison. And then one must learn to give forgiveness (to dwarves for their deeds) and mercy (not punish every crime) to have the best outcome.

This has nothing to do with original sin.

How Hobbes! We can't just demand Toady cram a "people are basically evil" philosophy down people's throats. He may or may not even have such a philosophy himself.

[Eric Blank]

I'm sure he'll fix it so that it displays more average values and stops making everyone seem like complete assholes in due time.

[Anatoli]

We all pretend to be something better than we are, but in truth, our personalities are much more extreme and repugnant.

A Nicer way of saying it is that we all try to be something better then we already are and aspire to be something better.

There is something that is lost with the statement "We all wear a mask" and it is that "We are the mask and the person behind it"

Sure. I was being a little bombastic. But there is still the idea that if we pretend to be something better than we are, we are still worse than we are seen.

How Hobbes! We can't just demand Toady cram a "people are basically evil" philosophy down people's throats. He may or may not even have such a philosophy himself.

I'm not demanding anything. Things like that are a natural result of having a more and more complex simulation, especially on in which one can see everyone's character at all times. And the thing about that, is that having that knowledge that we don't get in our regular lives should make it seem more "evil" than if we did not have that knowledge.

Even if they don't seem that evil compared to real life, and not everyone is an "asshole" in Fort Mode, the distinction will still remain between Fort and Adventure modes, as we won't be able to see who is a "bad man" in adventure mode that easily.

[Neonivek]

Sure. I was being a little bombastic. But there is still the idea that if we pretend to be something better than we are, we are still worse than we are seen.

I know I just wanted to say "we are also the mask"

[FearfulJesuit]

May as well make it a question: Toady, do you see dwarves/other races as being basically evil ("orginal sin"), basically good, or something else, like moral tabulae rasae or simply basically pragmatists?

[Neonivek]

May as well make it a question: Toady, do you see dwarves/other races as being basically evil ("orginal sin"), basically good, or something else, like moral tabulae rasae or simply basically pragmatists?

Toady seems to be on the side where there is no such thing as good and evil, at least inherently, as far as the game is concerned.

The Goblins for example are creatures who lack a sort of altruistic instinct.

[Helgoland]

Toady, what's your 'design philosophy' of the dwarven character? Where do you see yourself on the scale of Hobbes vs. Rousseau?

[smjjames]

Toady, what's your 'design philosophy' of the dwarven character? Where do you see yourself on the scale of Hobbes vs. [urlhttp://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RousseauWasRight]Rousseau[/url]?

AAA! Tvtropes!

Though really, I didn't click the link as I wasn't interested.

Given the way moods work, will the new personality and dreams stuff have any affect on strange moods?

[Chthonic]

". . . they can be fundamentally worse people than before."

Might we see some examples of these awful dwarves?

[PDF urist master]

i think necromancers are a good enough example.

[PDF urist master]

can goblins climb this?

[Putnam]

They shouldn't be able to climb smoothed walls well at all, so...