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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 3840058 times)

Parisbre56

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6735 on: June 07, 2013, 05:41:39 pm »

I think he's referring to some kind of system where worshipping something gives it power and may eventually turn it into a real god, something like empowering its spirit with that of his worshippers.

Witty

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6736 on: June 07, 2013, 05:42:33 pm »

What exactly will be the nature of Hill/Deep dwarves? Is it just a title for dwarves living in a certain area, or will there be a sort of subspecies system?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 05:45:32 pm by Witty »
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6737 on: June 07, 2013, 05:57:20 pm »

Toady do you picture the incarnate gods (Dragons, Titans, and some such) eventually being legitimate gods in their own right or just fakes that people latch onto?

Assuming of course you have a set idea for that at the moment

While I have my own idea of what they are, I am curious as to yours.

I'm almost sure these pose as gods or are worshiped as so, they are not really incarnate gods. Demi-gods adventurers are more related to gods than titans, I think.

I think the only meddling gods do now are curses.

I could be wrong, though.

Although they do get "worshippers" of their own during history, so maybe they are considered gods in their own right? 

I can imagine a civilization that bases their religion off the great beasts and titans it has encountered, though how they would interact with giant flesh-devouring snails or huge murderous metal statues in any meaningful way might come into question, though one might say the same about the religions with more aloof deities - if you have a god of war, shouldn't you always win all wars? If not, are your gods turning against you?  Is it any different if the god-snail destroys a town? 

From the fact that people already "worship" the megabeasts (though not in any meaningful way), I would guess there is some eventual plan for religion to have this type of setup as a possibility, though it likely isn't any time soon.  There's a lot of question about how active the gods will eventually be, or if they are to really exist as physical entities at all in DF, so presumably when the pantheons get looked at this sort of thing might come up as well as a natural extension of the end of the spectrum where gods are not only real, but actual physical entities you can meet out in the world. 

What exactly will be the nature of Hill/Deep dwarves? Is it just a title for dwarves living in a certain area, or will there be a sort of subspecies system?

The way they have been described is just a categorization based upon what sort of sites they inhabit.  While the deep dwarves will likely be more cave adapted, there probably won't be any biological differences (none have as yet been mentioned).  It is likely that the two populations might end up with differing "genes" due to lack of mixing of the groups during worldgen, so surface dwarves and deep dwarves would end up with two different sets of traits, but this would be an emergent feature, and it is not known as yet if this will happen.  It is also likely that hill dwarves will frequently have different professions from deep dwarves, due to different jobs being available at the two kinds of site. 

There is currently no known system for forcing one caste to one site and another to a different site, and multi-race forts don't work at all right now, so I'm pretty confident in saying that they will all have similar traits, though if I'm wrong the Toad will correct me. 
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Just Some Guy

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6738 on: June 07, 2013, 07:10:23 pm »

Will syndrome be able to directly cause insanity?

I've been researching hat-making. From what I've read, mercury poisoning is just the tip of the iceberg.

Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6739 on: June 07, 2013, 07:37:05 pm »

Quote
Although they do get "worshippers" of their own during history, so maybe they are considered gods in their own right?

Well with Greek Mythology, quite a few monsters were gods such as Typhon or a few of the Cyclops (In fact the one Ulysses meets is either a demigod or a outright god).

It is why I like to call the Titans the Incarnate Gods (as in gods who's natural form is a earthly physical one) since by all means they are gods being the avatars of locations and their homes being temples and shrines dedicated to them built by unknown hands.

But if the game will recognize such divinity or not is another question.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 07:47:56 pm by Neonivek »
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monk12

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6740 on: June 07, 2013, 09:43:27 pm »

Which of course depends a great deal on what "divinity" entails in DF. I... don't recall a quote on that subject, would probably make good DF Talk material.

Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6741 on: June 07, 2013, 10:44:59 pm »

Which of course depends a great deal on what "divinity" entails in DF. I... don't recall a quote on that subject, would probably make good DF Talk material.

"On Today's Dwarf Fortress Talk, We listen to Neonivek"

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WillowLuman

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6742 on: June 08, 2013, 12:14:47 am »

I think it was that, depending on the world, they'd range from existing only as a cultural concept to actually throwing thunderbolts.
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6743 on: June 08, 2013, 04:10:53 am »

What exactly will be the nature of Hill/Deep dwarves? Is it just a title for dwarves living in a certain area, or will there be a sort of subspecies system?
Hill dwarves have been referred to as "fallen", but probably more in jest than anything else. They're likely to simply have a different culture from fortress dwarves, if that. Deep dwarves are a different story, though - they may end up different from fortress dwarves:
Quote from: Toady One
Yeah, yeah, at least in that way ... I think there will be places for your dwarves to also have direct impact, but when it comes to military stuff, and certain trade things, you're going to have to act through intermediate sites just because of the sheer numbers behind it. The deep sites are ... they act in a similar fashion for underground business, but they're also ... we haven't really planned that exactly how strange they're going to be, but they supplement your food, that kind of thing, if you don't want to farm, you can trade with them.
...
But I'm sure that the deep dwarves will become more exotic if anything to distinguish them from the hill dwarves, because right now they're quite similar in economy, in the sense they're kind of food-drunky type of things. Because we could make them into ... If they became just like forts and were all about mining and crafting ... you would become mediocre in all things, except for like your ability to charge tolls to people that want to go outside, something that would be kind of stupid as a sole function. So we're thinking that the deep sites could kind of be a farm league for mediocre craftsman and then you could get some better ones from there and you would be like the majors in terms of what's going on in your fortress. But we'll have to see how it plays out. I'm sure we'll come up with some good things once we've got the deep sites and hill dwarf sites actually linked to your fortress, so they're not linked right now. So right now they're pretty blah-blah sites with their plump helmet fields and little delved out living arrangements and so on, they're kind of like a village, right now, those deeper sites.


Will syndrome be able to directly cause insanity?

I've been researching hat-making. From what I've read, mercury poisoning is just the tip of the iceberg.
Probably some day. As usual with questions about future future developments, the answer is likely to be a variation on "Sounds reasonable, but no timeline."
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6744 on: June 08, 2013, 01:13:02 pm »

I think both approaches would fit well in the game. You can have your dwarves take care of themselves, while simultaneously excessively micromanaging the magma-spewing robot megaproject you're working on.

Perhaps a Dwarf Therapist-style interface with an "auto-labor" setting for individual dwarves/jobs/workshops? For example, set crafting to auto, and any dwarf who is set to auto will have the ability to make crafts at an auto-set workshop, if they choose to do so (dependent on individual preferences).

groups would be very nice here. The Autolabor and task-asignment for stuff like Farming can very well go with Autolabor while, like already mentioned certain (magma spewing) projects would profit from some micro. Tie that to a competent "Manager" noble and we even have a viable arc for that mechanic. ... Anyone up to turn that into a suggestion?
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6745 on: June 09, 2013, 08:56:29 am »

With all the tweaks you had to do to make dwarves in dwarf mode operate properly with the movement/combat/vision changes, is there something even slightly different in their overall behavior?

Does the creature's agility still defines it's overall movement in dwarf mode? How do they differentiate from one another in terms of speed? Are they always "running", or do their speed alternate deppending of what they're doing?

Do people and animals "charge" differently in combat in dwarf mode now? Any major changes in the combat AI?

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Man In Zero G

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6746 on: June 09, 2013, 09:55:25 am »

Toady do you picture the incarnate gods (Dragons, Titans, and some such) eventually being legitimate gods in their own right or just fakes that people latch onto?

Assuming of course you have a set idea for that at the moment


While I have my own idea of what they are, I am curious as to yours.
Why wouldn't they be "legitimate"? Greek titans are only separated from the Greek gods by genealogy. They still had the same kind of power over the world as the gods did, sometimes more profoundly - they just ignored humanity in general. Most of the monsters that remotely resemble megabeasts can be looked at the same way. Step outside Mediterranean-originated mythology, and the concept of what a god is varies vastly throughout the world's cultures. So I think that's the idea he was going for here.

That aside, from a mechanical, coding standpoint:
What currently defines the Gods is the 'spheres' system. The set of tags that determine what each God is the 'god of'. These tags also determine that an individual can be worshiped. Megabeasts, Semi-megabeasts, Titans, and all such other deeper evils all have sphere tags, so they get worshiped. Since Toady has indicated in the past that the Gods will be more meddlesome in the world eventually, one can logically follow that the sphere tags will also be what determines the 'divine powers' each god has - that way a God of Oceans, Fishing, and Marriage will have different powers than a God of Fortresses, War, and Metalcrafting. And if the Meagabeasts and company continue to have the tags at that point, it follows that logically, they too will have god-like powers because of it. At that point, since they would have the powers of a god, who's to tell them that they are not one? Or at least close enough to worship. Seems legit.
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Buttery_Mess

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6747 on: June 09, 2013, 11:56:06 am »

Will Dwarf, Elf (and Goblin? Probably not kobold..) sites have shops selling equipment? Will small vendors only sell clothing and armour wearable by the small races, and medium vendors to the medium races; or will dwarves sell medium sized things, humans small things, and so on?
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6748 on: June 09, 2013, 12:35:20 pm »

I'm not certain if this has been referenced before so:

With the addition of retiring fortresses, can we now expect creatures not to scatter when leaving fortress mode in this way? If an adventurer visits a retired fortress, can he expect to find goblin prisoners in the dungeons, dragons in the treasure room and livestock in their pens? Or would he find the hostile creatures scattered randomly around the fortress, and all the pets dead, as it currently happens when one abandons a fortress?
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #6749 on: June 09, 2013, 12:55:20 pm »

I would like something in between:

"Occupation" (which consist of enabled/disabled labors, noble positions and military squad assigment,marked with priority)

Overseer would declare his own custom occupations and number of spots required and dwarves would try to fill them in. They would try to stick with their job, only leaving it if some occupation is not taken up by anybody (or if higher priority occupation is one man short, or if they have not had any labors related to thier occupation and there is any other spot free, or if occupation for which they are highly qualified had empty slot)

That way, I can declare that my fort will need 4 butchers/tanners, 2 leatherworkers and 3 cooks/millers and spots would get filled in intelligently.
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