Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Caldfir]

Since dwarves could now, theoretically, become necromancers during play, do they require any reading skill to get a tome from a god? Or is the skill just granted for them upon recieving their powers? And would it target fort mode dwarves or adventurer dwarves differently than normal?

Obviously, you won't get dwarves recieving slabs during the time they are in your fortress, at least not while it's active, or during active adventure runs, but I'm talking about dwarves in a non-active place. I want to know if a nick-named dwarf could become a necromancer and turn on their former comrades, as this would make for some great storytelling.

Is this in the upcoming release?  I was under the impression that the only things that have been moved to play thusfar are invasions, birth/death, and succession stuff.  I don't think any of the night ogre/werewolf/zombie/vampire/necromancer stuff has gotten into play from worldgen yet.  The 06/06/2012 devlog indicates that it is a goal for this release or soon after, but from what I've seen in the log recently, the Toad's mainly been working on the broad background programming that's needed for all these changes to occur and make sense. 

There is however the larger point that comes from your comment - there are a large number of skills in the game right now that don't do anything in fort mode at all, (reading, and now climbing come to mind) while most of the crafting/production skills are useless in adventure mode (I don't think adv mode butchery improves with skill).  Obviously there are plenty of mods that change this, but there's also the question of how these things get set up in worldgen, and if they're going to be generally respected in the new post-worldgen, so to generalize the question:

Toady, do historical figures post-worldgen gain skills yet?  Currently, historical figures spend parts of their lives working as various professions, and they have some matching skills to show for it.  Will someone born post-worldgen do the same, or does the world slowly drift toward skillessness? (I mean for the upcoming release, since it is fairly obvious this ought to happen at some point)

Don't think that's been asked yet anyway. 

[zwei]

What's wrong with tantrum spirals?

[opinion]

Tantrums as they are now are illogical, often disproportionate and often misdirected. That they can turn into tantrum spirals is not an issue. If for example a dwarf is unhappy that their friend was hammered because a mandate wasn't met, they shouldn't punch their baby and throw an anvil at their spouse and feel better afterwards. If instead the angry dwarf organized his peasant friends into an angry mob and led them on a protest march which then descended into brutal violence because the fortress guard tried to break it up, that would be interesting. It's a question of ambition when it comes to what the game can eventually do.

Tantrums are an arbitrary challenge as implemented now, like mandates, until things that should be more challenging become challenging (sieges, food production, water, gaining and maintaining a high population etc). DF is good enough to be free of arbitrary additions or restrictions (wood only beds) in an effort to provide "challenge" or "balance".

Some might argue that they are "dwarfy" and shouldn't change. The same has been said of Boatmudered elephants, 40d carp and the dungeon master cloak fetishist.

[/opinion]

Another example is war:

When fort goes under attack, military repels it without civilian casualties and few soldiers die, there should not be riot as a result. Soldier dying during their job should not give same kind of thought as ordinary death - most of population should be extatic from winning battle and being safe.

Grieving is wrongly modelled as "go on pointless rampage" instead of "be depressed for some time, but recover eventually" (or, in extreme case, blame captain of squad or military commander and beat the shit out of them).

Thoughts are only onedimensional thing and more mental states should be tracked:
 * anger/frustration
 * melancholy/sadness
 * self esteem/ego
 * psychological lability/madness
...

With personality deciding what comes and goes, so that dwarf could cope with death by being very sad, but recovering from it farily quickly, but also build up frustration which does not go away as easily so that fifth death would be his breaking point. While another would let steam off by becoming angry, but eventually become mentally unstable if he does not have job he can focus on.

[Kogan Loloklam]

Some snips:
"are illogical, often disproportionate and often misdirected."


"they shouldn't punch their baby and throw an anvil at their spouse and feel better afterwards..."

I agree with these snips. Although only out of context. In context they say tantrum spirals have no real life examples.

A "tantrum spiral" taken at a fortress level resembles a riot, of sorts. Tantrums taken at an individual level resemble people snapping. Could tantrums be modeled better? Sure. But they are still not completely inaccurate. When a Dwarf snaps, it's usually a place you'd see a person snap, and I haven't seen a single incident where it couldn't be a real life example situation with just a little context. The dwarf threw the baby after seeing his best friend die? "The baby wouldn't stop crying! I JUST WANTED A MINUTE OF PEACE!"
A masterwork was defaced and anvil to spouse's head? "I come home after my greatest work was broken, and my damn wife just sat there eating her minced dwarven wine biscuits. I told her to have my cave spider silk socks dusted when I came home. Did she? Nope. So I hit her lazy person in the head with an anvil to motivate her."

[zwei]

Some snips:
"are illogical, often disproportionate and often misdirected."


"they shouldn't punch their baby and throw an anvil at their spouse and feel better afterwards..."

I agree with these snips. Although only out of context. In context they say tantrum spirals have no real life examples.

I dare you to find example where where besieged settlement repelled enemy force (that would butcher then given chance) and people went into muderous chaotic riot because few soldiers died.

Problem with your counter examples is that those things grow - in df they just come full strength and then vanish.

[My Name is Immaterial]

Some snips:
"are illogical, often disproportionate and often misdirected."


"they shouldn't punch their baby and throw an anvil at their spouse and feel better afterwards..."

I agree with these snips. Although only out of context. In context they say tantrum spirals have no real life examples.

I dare you to find example where where besieged settlement repelled enemy force (that would butcher then given chance) and people went into muderous chaotic riot because few soldiers died.

Problem with your counter examples is that those things grow - in df they just come full strength and then vanish.

True, but the tantrum spiral cycle is closer to real life examples, except with lots of dwarves in the place of a single person. A TS has an initial event that slowly builds up, until it erupts. Sometimes you have to remember that dwarves are not individual people yet; they are parts of a hive mind.

[Willfor]

True, but the tantrum spiral cycle is closer to real life examples, except with lots of dwarves in the place of a single person. A TS has an initial event that slowly builds up, until it erupts. Sometimes you have to remember that dwarves are not individual people yet; they are parts of a hive mind.

Yes, and these are suggestions directed at taking them from the hive mind state to the point of individuality. Not playing the game as it is, but directed toward what the game itself is striving to become.

[My Name is Immaterial]

I meant to talk about the current version, because it seemed to be more of a discussion about the current version.
That's just me.

[hoveringdog]

When fort goes under attack, military repels it without civilian casualties and few soldiers die, there should not be riot as a result.

Has to be said, though, that this doesn't happen in a fortress unless there are a lot of other stressors at work. Dwarves that have been sleeping in meager accommodations, suffering long patrols, eating the same monotonous food or none at all, and then, and only then, does the loss of a good friend set them off into inconsolable grief and rage.  It's the last straw, not the sole cause.

I've had mature fortresses where entire squads of legendary dwarves get slaughtered and there's barely a batted eye because everyone is fat, dumb, and happy on their masterwork roasts, legendary dining rooms, and bedrooms like personal palaces.

I do agree, though, that the whole tantrum issue could use a lot more nuance, more like a civil war or insurrection than a hundred unorganized dwarves alone smashing tables or ripping the wings off the geese. But as it is now, after the first two or three years of a fortress, tantrum spirals are usually avoidable unless there's some major, fortress-ending disaster.

[hermes]

When fort goes under attack, military repels it without civilian casualties and few soldiers die, there should not be riot as a result.

Has to be said, though, that this doesn't happen in a fortress unless there are a lot of other stressors at work. Dwarves that have been sleeping in meager accommodations, suffering long patrols, eating the same monotonous food or none at all, and then, and only then, does the loss of a good friend set them off into inconsolable grief and rage.  It's the last straw, not the sole cause.

I've had mature fortresses where entire squads of legendary dwarves get slaughtered and there's barely a batted eye because everyone is fat, dumb, and happy on their masterwork roasts, legendary dining rooms, and bedrooms like personal palaces.

I do agree, though, that the whole tantrum issue could use a lot more nuance, more like a civil war or insurrection than a hundred unorganized dwarves alone smashing tables or ripping the wings off the geese. But as it is now, after the first two or three years of a fortress, tantrum spirals are usually avoidable unless there's some major, fortress-ending disaster.

An organized tantrum, perhaps an oxymoron, is a pretty scary prospect!  Whilst I expect it is highly likely Toady will look in on tantrum spirals at a later date, I remember he said on DF Talk one time that dwarves are "more human than human", extreme in their emotions and behaviour, and I think tantrum spirals suit this mandate nicely.  The Hobbit movie also conveyed this kind of personality quite well, Dwarves are quick to anger and violence, and perhaps only later would consider that murdering the soapmaker might have been a slight overreaction.  Anyway, perhaps with taverns and non-lethal combat perhaps tantrum lethality will be toned down a bit?

Possibly asked before question...

When goblins raid towns and hunt for leaders, can those leaders and citizens escape?  If so, what do they do?

[goblolo]

In current version we have non-flying tamed birds: eagles, giant cave swallows, etc.
Can we expect them to fly when tamed?

[Putnam]

In current version we have non-flying tamed birds: eagles, giant cave swallows, etc.
Can we expect them to fly when tamed?

I'd say no, since I don't think there's anything changed in fort mode pathfinding this version.

[hops]

Will the military UI be improved next update, or is it for later updates?

[BinaryBeast1010011010]

I, for one, find the UI pretty good the way it is. The uniforms related bugs though...

[darklord92]

In current version we have non-flying tamed birds: eagles, giant cave swallows, etc.
Can we expect them to fly when tamed?

I'd say no, since I don't think there's anything changed in fort mode pathfinding this version.

jumping and climbing? I believe he said they would be coming to fort mode.

[Sizik]

Don't flying creatures actually fly, albeit only to areas they could walk to? Or is that different for tamed creatures?