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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 3842236 times)

Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4395 on: November 16, 2012, 10:43:50 pm »

When can we get modding support for the procedurally generated things, like modding Necromancers or making our own secrets?
What about syndromes that add new limbs?

We can make our own secrets.

The second part: maybe later.

King Mir

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4396 on: November 16, 2012, 11:12:35 pm »

It's possible to set up an account with MtGox that will convert bitcoins to dollars right away with every transaction, AFAIK. Also, people interested in donating bit coins have bitcoins to give. If the value of bitcoins drops, that doesn't mean the same people would have donated more bitcoins if they knew that it would.

I think the real issue would be if the marginal increase in donations due to people being able to use their preferred currency is worth the hassle other potential drawbacks of setting it up. If somebody interested in donating bit coins were to ask Toady to set something up, that might be enough. Or he might not go for it. Questions about making donations may be more suitable for email or PM than this thread.
ToadyOne seems to be in favor of the path of least resistance with the administration of the businessy side of ToadyOne The Great Productions. Why bother with unstable, obscure, quasi legitimate tender, when in so far ToadyOne makes enough with just accepting donations.

And on another note, thats what we need more administrative man hours away from working on the game, for a questionable increase in donations and furthermore, a questionable sustained increase in donation.
Firstly, there's nothing "illigitimate" about bitcoins.

Second, I disagree with the notion that Toady makes "enough." He could make due with less, but he would certainly prefer to make more.

Third, Toady does devote time, generally on weekends, I believe, to responding to donations, in providing all the perks a donation can give. This would be as much time spent on a single donation. It could be worthwhile to provide the convenience to the single donor alone, regardless of potential sustained increases. It is a also a false choice to say that any time Toady spends time on donations or anything else means less time developing the game. It's not that clear cut.

AutomataKittay

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4397 on: November 17, 2012, 01:59:16 am »

It's possible to set up an account with MtGox that will convert bitcoins to dollars right away with every transaction, AFAIK. Also, people interested in donating bit coins have bitcoins to give. If the value of bitcoins drops, that doesn't mean the same people would have donated more bitcoins if they knew that it would.

I think the real issue would be if the marginal increase in donations due to people being able to use their preferred currency is worth the hassle other potential drawbacks of setting it up. If somebody interested in donating bit coins were to ask Toady to set something up, that might be enough. Or he might not go for it. Questions about making donations may be more suitable for email or PM than this thread.
ToadyOne seems to be in favor of the path of least resistance with the administration of the businessy side of ToadyOne The Great Productions. Why bother with unstable, obscure, quasi legitimate tender, when in so far ToadyOne makes enough with just accepting donations.

And on another note, thats what we need more administrative man hours away from working on the game, for a questionable increase in donations and furthermore, a questionable sustained increase in donation.
Firstly, there's nothing "illigitimate" about bitcoins.

Second, I disagree with the notion that Toady makes "enough." He could make due with less, but he would certainly prefer to make more.

Third, Toady does devote time, generally on weekends, I believe, to responding to donations, in providing all the perks a donation can give. This would be as much time spent on a single donation. It could be worthwhile to provide the convenience to the single donor alone, regardless of potential sustained increases. It is a also a false choice to say that any time Toady spends time on donations or anything else means less time developing the game. It's not that clear cut.

I hears a lot about bitcoins in relationship to illegal activity, like drug market, botnet rentals, etc :D

Either way, I don't think that having bitcoin donation will be worth the overhead, particularly with how iffy their legal basis is, some of the exchanges don't seems to be sure if they're operating legally as a currency. Even without the association, it's very minor currency and very unstable to boot.

So in short; grey area for it, unstable exchange rate, having to manage another account just for it, lack of accountablity in the system ( not criminal activity, just general lack of tracking that banks are required to have ).
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MrWiggles

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4398 on: November 17, 2012, 04:47:13 am »

It's possible to set up an account with MtGox that will convert bitcoins to dollars right away with every transaction, AFAIK. Also, people interested in donating bit coins have bitcoins to give. If the value of bitcoins drops, that doesn't mean the same people would have donated more bitcoins if they knew that it would.

I think the real issue would be if the marginal increase in donations due to people being able to use their preferred currency is worth the hassle other potential drawbacks of setting it up. If somebody interested in donating bit coins were to ask Toady to set something up, that might be enough. Or he might not go for it. Questions about making donations may be more suitable for email or PM than this thread.
ToadyOne seems to be in favor of the path of least resistance with the administration of the businessy side of ToadyOne The Great Productions. Why bother with unstable, obscure, quasi legitimate tender, when in so far ToadyOne makes enough with just accepting donations.

And on another note, thats what we need more administrative man hours away from working on the game, for a questionable increase in donations and furthermore, a questionable sustained increase in donation.
Firstly, there's nothing "illigitimate" about bitcoins.

Second, I disagree with the notion that Toady makes "enough." He could make due with less, but he would certainly prefer to make more.

Third, Toady does devote time, generally on weekends, I believe, to responding to donations, in providing all the perks a donation can give. This would be as much time spent on a single donation. It could be worthwhile to provide the convenience to the single donor alone, regardless of potential sustained increases. It is a also a false choice to say that any time Toady spends time on donations or anything else means less time developing the game. It's not that clear cut.

I hears a lot about bitcoins in relationship to illegal activity, like drug market, botnet rentals, etc :D

Either way, I don't think that having bitcoin donation will be worth the overhead, particularly with how iffy their legal basis is, some of the exchanges don't seems to be sure if they're operating legally as a currency. Even without the association, it's very minor currency and very unstable to boot.

So in short; grey area for it, unstable exchange rate, having to manage another account just for it, lack of accountablity in the system ( not criminal activity, just general lack of tracking that banks are required to have ).

ToadyOne has spoken about maximizing revenue in a few DF Talk, and hes also aware that if he were to redo the entire UI to make it more accessible would also probably increase revenue as well. And, he/we (Its hard to see how much weight ThreeToes has 8/) seems to not be terrible interested in doing things for the sake of maximizing revenue. So, that's moot.

And that would go against community common perception of ToadyOne, in being not wanting to 'sell out'. Heck, ToadyOne doesnt seem to even want to make crappy print on demand t-shirts to help support themselves.

So, I think its safe to conclude that ToadyOne, is at least satisfied with the amount that DF makes him/them.

And BitCoins is qusi legitimate tender because its a tender only used in a grey market, a tiny, obscure, market that almost no one cares about. The fact that its heavily used (in what little it is used) in conjunction with black market activity doesnt really impact its legitimacy. All actual currency is used for black market transactions.

But beyond that, you neatly avoided the issue of its questionable measure of donations or it being sustaining source of donations. I dont blame you, BitCoin grey market, is de facto dying. Even on the onion network, its not exactly flourishing.

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AutomataKittay

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4399 on: November 17, 2012, 05:26:04 am »

And BitCoins is qusi legitimate tender because its a tender only used in a grey market, a tiny, obscure, market that almost no one cares about. The fact that its heavily used (in what little it is used) in conjunction with black market activity doesnt really impact its legitimacy. All actual currency is used for black market transactions.

But beyond that, you neatly avoided the issue of its questionable measure of donations or it being sustaining source of donations. I dont blame you, BitCoin grey market, is de facto dying. Even on the onion network, its not exactly flourishing.

I'd like to clarify for future, just the currency being involved in illegimate market don't makes it bad money, I was more joking about it's reputation, hopefully that line wasn't taken seriously!

It's instability, small market and lack of accountablity's why I'm pointing out the issues with it. And the comment about grey area's about the legality of currency itself, not what it's involved with, since some bitcoin exchanges and federal government's had some published debate and unsureness of it's statue.

I'd hope the excessively unstable exchange rate and lack of legal accounting is enough of points in disfavor of it as a good donation point. Bitcoin is interesting idea and could be viable if it was larger and more stable system with legal oversight, rather than current small and grey system.

(Also sorry all for the derail! )
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BinaryBeast1010011010

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4400 on: November 17, 2012, 01:01:21 pm »

Pray, why are bitcoins "dying"

They do not need any legal oversight, from my point of view the more bitcoins are mined the more stable it gets...
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Robosaur

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4401 on: November 17, 2012, 01:48:10 pm »

When can we get modding support for the procedurally generated things, like modding Necromancers or making our own secrets?
What about syndromes that add new limbs?

We can make our own secrets.

The second part: maybe later.

not really.
necromancers are currently hardcoded in the game. You can't change a thing about them, and if you make any secrets of your own, the worldgen spits out at most one of them.

so I restate my question. When can we get proper modding support for secret interactions? (and maybe werebeasts?)
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4402 on: November 17, 2012, 01:50:20 pm »

When can we get modding support for the procedurally generated things, like modding Necromancers or making our own secrets?
What about syndromes that add new limbs?

We can make our own secrets.

The second part: maybe later.

not really.
necromancers are currently hardcoded in the game. You can't change a thing about them, and if you make any secrets of your own, the worldgen spits out at most one of them.

so I restate my question. When can we get proper modding support for secret interactions? (and maybe werebeasts?)

All it takes is changing one line in advanced worldgen to fix that. Lower the amount of secrets in advanced worldgen and now you have more than just 1. I usually have 5 or 6 if I do that.

Iforgotmypassword

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4403 on: November 17, 2012, 01:50:40 pm »

In a future release, will a player or NPC controlled fortress be able to declare independence from their civ? If so, Will the civ make an effort to reclaim a disobedient fortress by force?
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monk12

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4404 on: November 17, 2012, 01:53:48 pm »

In a future release, will a player or NPC controlled fortress be able to declare independence from their civ? If so, Will the civ make an effort to reclaim a disobedient fortress by force?

Quote from: ToadyOne
We don't really have the consequences all coded for refusing the barony -- once that relationship is established more formally, it should be respected when your fortress retires.  It could very well end up as its own civilization at that point (and you'd also have dwarf invasion trouble at times).

MrWiggles

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4405 on: November 17, 2012, 05:20:45 pm »

Pray, why are bitcoins "dying"

They do not need any legal oversight, from my point of view the more bitcoins are mined the more stable it gets...
Its community is stagnating or declining, on the whole, and the number of bitcoin miners are overall smaller then during bitcoin very brief boom.
It certainly isnt stabilizing nor is it even near close to being a mainstream Net Currency, or whatever fable you want Bitcoins to fill.
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Caldfir

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4406 on: November 17, 2012, 05:30:02 pm »

The bitcoin discussion doesn't really seem related to "current DF development" and would probably do better in its own thread.  Moving on.

When can we get modding support for the procedurally generated things, like modding Necromancers or making our own secrets?
What about syndromes that add new limbs?

We can make our own secrets.

The second part: maybe later.

not really.
necromancers are currently hardcoded in the game. You can't change a thing about them, and if you make any secrets of your own, the worldgen spits out at most one of them.

so I restate my question. When can we get proper modding support for secret interactions? (and maybe werebeasts?)

As was mentioned its currently partially doable if you fiddle with things correctly.   As to why there are hard-coded chunks, there are a couple of reasons I'm aware of currently.  Generally, if something in DF is hardcoded, it is because Toady thinks he'll be coming back to make some significant changes to the system, and it is a bit rude to cultivate a modding community, then turn their work into garbage on a regular basis.  In the case of the Werebeasts and Necromancers, this "unfinished" part is probably the randomization procedure used to create the current incarnations of the Undead and Werebeasts (not to mention underground unmoddable things). 

The other aspect that's waiting is for historical figures to have motivations ("heroes and villains" I think it was called on the old devgoals).  There is some minor work being done with the "immortality" type motivations and things, but there's meant to be a much more satisfying and larger system in place to govern what historical figures do and why they do it.  Most of the vanilla Werebeasts just suck because they don't really act in a believable way right now, and just mope about naked in a cave waiting to be killed.  Once they develop goals and go on adventures themselves, there will be a system of behaviors and motivations in place that will make a modded version able to behave appropriately. 

So yeah, right now, as was mentioned, it can be done, but is a bit fiddly and unfinished to work with.  It would be nice for the system to be more accommodating to modding, but it is probably going to wait until one of the those two things to get handled (or for Toady to go on another night creature kick). 
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BinaryBeast1010011010

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4407 on: November 17, 2012, 06:36:39 pm »

Pray, why are bitcoins "dying"

They do not need any legal oversight, from my point of view the more bitcoins are mined the more stable it gets...
Its community is stagnating or declining, on the whole, and the number of bitcoin miners are overall smaller then during bitcoin very brief boom.
It certainly isnt stabilizing nor is it even near close to being a mainstream Net Currency, or whatever fable you want Bitcoins to fill.
TBH I lack enough data to reply to your statement, but I would be very glad to have a look at your sources. It's normal that bitcoin miners get less and less numerous since it is getting harder to mine new bitcoins. What you call the "brief boom" would be the period when it was easy to mine tons of new bitcoins in a small length of time without much ressources.

how can I move several posts to a new thread? do I have to be a moderator to do so?
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CaptainArchmage

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4408 on: November 17, 2012, 06:59:55 pm »

Toady, in the most recent DFtalk you mentioned other dimensions and how Dwarf Fortress is not quite there to implement them. I've also heard in a previous DFtalk that the game is already able to deal with "alternate dimensions", say, from where some night creatures may come from. Do you think players will be able to colonize those alternate dimensions in the future? Its been a theme in some games (i.e. Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic).
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Just Some Guy

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4409 on: November 17, 2012, 09:33:41 pm »

Pray, why are bitcoins "dying"

They do not need any legal oversight, from my point of view the more bitcoins are mined the more stable it gets...
Its community is stagnating or declining, on the whole, and the number of bitcoin miners are overall smaller then during bitcoin very brief boom.
It certainly isnt stabilizing nor is it even near close to being a mainstream Net Currency, or whatever fable you want Bitcoins to fill.
TBH I lack enough data to reply to your statement, but I would be very glad to have a look at your sources. It's normal that bitcoin miners get less and less numerous since it is getting harder to mine new bitcoins. What you call the "brief boom" would be the period when it was easy to mine tons of new bitcoins in a small length of time without much ressources.

how can I move several posts to a new thread? do I have to be a moderator to do so?

How are bitcoins mined anyway?
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