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Author Topic: I Hate Level Scaling  (Read 18443 times)

pilgrimboy

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I Hate Level Scaling
« on: February 11, 2012, 07:40:11 pm »

I just started playing Fallout 3, and I am reminded why I hate level scaling. I didn't like it in Skyrim. (Setting the level encounters based upon when you enter and having you fight characters with different names and a slightly tweaked appearance is still level scaling.) I thought I would check out Kingdoms of Aramur, but they do the same thing.

Sometimes I want to walk into an area and be "the man", but it never happens. It seems like the world is just a continual struggle, just like it was at the very beginning.

I don't know the answer, but level scaling always ruins the immersion for me. Why do all the lower level enemies have to disappear?

Are there any modern RPGs that don't level scale?
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Virtz

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2012, 07:49:24 pm »

Relatively modern stuff that (I think) doesn't have level-scaling:
-The Witcher 2
-Risen
-Two Worlds 2

And yeah, I hate it too. To me it's a lazy alternative to actually balancing out the difficulty in different areas.
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Rex_Nex

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2012, 08:11:09 pm »

Absolutely hate it also. How the hell am I supposed to feel my character's ascension into (in Skyrim's case) the legendary Dovahkiin when most of my opponents are just as tough (or tougher) to face as they were at level 1!
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freeformschooler

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2012, 08:14:45 pm »

Yeah, me too. Level scaling is just like level grinding without the personal satisfaction of finally being able to face those certain specific foes.
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darkrider2

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2012, 08:23:08 pm »

Level scaling I believe is put in place in order to invoke a difficulty curve and a sense of progression. However it utterly fails at both when the games have so few intricate mechanics beyond slash your sword at enemy. The difficulty and challenge is lost because all throughout the game the difficulty feels the same with level scaling, which also destroys any sense of progression.

Although the real purpose is likely to prevent the game from becoming too easy for the player.

I challenge a game developer to make a game where you can travel anywhere and get your ass handed to you at level 1 because you went to the dragons layer and got eaten alive. And a game where at level 100 I can turn on my country and mercilessly destroy all of my people without breaking a sweat.

Oh wait that's DF adventure mode.

God I love Dwarf Fortress.
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Sirian

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2012, 08:24:28 pm »

Are you sure that Amalur does it ? I havent played a lot, but it seems to me like you can face very challenging foes if you go in some places too early, and now that i have some decent gear and some levels, i can make short work of the weakest enemies. However, i did notice that the loot was level-scaled to a large extent.
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Virex

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2012, 08:28:51 pm »

Meh, Half-Life 2 scaled according to how well you did, so it can't be the end to all games. But yeah, sloppy programming makes for poor gameplay.
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Levi

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2012, 08:42:39 pm »

Level scaling doesn't bother me if it actually switches in harder creatures, I like it better than facing weak creatures when I go back to explore an area I just visited briefly.

I don't like it when its something like Level 1 wolf is now a level 10 wolf, because I'm level 10.  That is just boring and silly.
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freeformschooler

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2012, 09:01:06 pm »

Level scaling doesn't bother me if it actually switches in harder creatures, I like it better than facing weak creatures when I go back to explore an area I just visited briefly.

I don't like it when its something like Level 1 wolf is now a level 10 wolf, because I'm level 10.  That is just boring and silly.

^Also what Levi said. Basically, the concept is way better when it's not completely predictable.
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Bouchart

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2012, 09:01:27 pm »

This is the reason why Final Fantasy 8 is ridiculously easy if you don't get any XP.
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Delta Foxtrot

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2012, 09:06:40 pm »

Not sure how strictly you define your "modern", but both Baldur's Gate 2 and Star Wars: KOTOR are pretty good games that lack any noticeable level scaling. Also modded TES IV: Oblivion.
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blackmagechill

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2012, 09:28:26 pm »

I actually kind of like level scaling because it forces me to branch out and try to be a step ahead of the game. I mean sure, If you want to murder leaf bunnies for 6 days and then fuck everybodie's shit all the way to the Floating Continent, then it's your business not mine. And Fallout three difficulty becomes irrelevant with any DLC except for point Lookout, which scales shit up a notch and broken steel which introduces broken feral ghoul reavers (they easily have over 3000 HP and are borderline impossible to to kill in under five minutes). Buy the Pitt or Operation Anchorage (Anchorage is pretty cool actually).
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ndkid

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2012, 09:40:45 pm »

I actually kind of like level scaling because it forces me to branch out and try to be a step ahead of the game. I mean sure, If you want to murder leaf bunnies for 6 days and then fuck everybodie's shit all the way to the Floating Continent, then it's your business not mine. And Fallout three difficulty becomes irrelevant with any DLC except for point Lookout, which scales shit up a notch and broken steel which introduces broken feral ghoul reavers (they easily have over 3000 HP and are borderline impossible to to kill in under five minutes). Buy the Pitt or Operation Anchorage (Anchorage is pretty cool actually).
I'd point out that almost all games scale levels to one extent or another, because the alternative is player frustration, which is a serious no-no in modern gaming. Thus, wherever the player starts, The Rules say there shalt not be high-level mobs, and that, as you move onward, there shalt be mobs of increasing power as you go. Usually, when playing an RPG, I find myself wondering what it is about Random Starting Town that makes it the home of all that is weak and puny in the world.
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a1s

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2012, 09:44:00 pm »

Baldur's Gate 2 and Star Wars: KOTOR
Not to burst your bubble, but BGII was made 10 years ago (and KotOR was made over 5), it doesn't count as modern. But if you want to talk BlackIsle, both of the Fallout games had no level scaling and didn't prevent you from going into dangerous areas.
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Ashnal

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2012, 09:47:01 pm »

Level scaling is like putting a band aid on a deep gash.

First, I'm sure many of you agree that when it comes to rpg's the sense of progression must be compelling. Second, for a game to remain interesting it should be challenging in some aspects.

These two goals tend to be at odds in open world rpg games. In the old linear rpgs this problem was solved by throwing more diverse and tougher enemies as your character(s) progressed.  Overall your character(s) power level was always relatively equivalent to the enemies you were facing, but the feeling of progression was there because the enemies' visuals and lore painted them as much more powerful than enemies you've faced before (also because in some rpgs you could return and whoop previous enemies' asses).

Level scaling is an attempt to fit linear rpg design into an open world. Trying to make sure that no matter what path a player takes around the world, it will be challenging enough to keep them interested. Of course, we know many people dislike it because it makes the challenge feel fake when enemies you've previously encountered become much stronger and robs the player of the sense of progression. If the world around you is always as strong as you are, then what was the point of getting stronger in the first place?

There are a few proposed solutions to the problem, but each has their own problems. The most obvious one many ask for is a static strength world like linear rpgs. This solution allows for the sense of progression to be kept intact, and allows the player to pick their challenge level based on their location. However in an open world game with a  static strength world the player doesn't necessarily have the exact knowledge of which areas are safe and which are dangerous. How is the player supposed to gauge a threat they've never experienced? There are some people that like that sort of thing, but I believe that they are outnumbered by those who would prefer a more streamlined experience. At least for me, I like to be able choose if I'm going to dive in over my head or stick to a suitable challenge. Another issue with a  static world is that it can be easy for a player to miss the window of challenge for an area. If there are many places with a similar level of challenge. or the player finds a way to jump up in power quickly, some areas become obsolete before the player ever visits them. It becomes quite hard to control the level of challenge when you can't base it in part on the player's strength.

One solution I've thought of is like level scaling, but with a twist to salvage progression. Say the world scales in level like we've seen in games like FO3 and Oblivion, but once a player "clears" an area, all the creatures that may spawn there remain at the level they were when the player "cleared" that area (the definition of cleared would have to be a game and area specific detail). This lets the game keep up with the player in power for new areas the player is exploring, but allows them to feel their progression when they return later for whatever reason.

Another idea of mine is not to scale the power of enemies directly, but rather the range of power they can be. For instance say you're attacked by bandits at lvl 1. They're all pretty weak and you can take them on in 1v1 combat but as a group they're dangerous. You get a little stronger later on and find you can fend off the weak groups 1 vs. group. Then as you grow more in power the bandit group composition shifts. Most of it is still the same weak bandits from the beginning, but now they have a leader who rivals your own strength. The expanding maximum power of the range allows weaker enemies to still spawn, allowing you to feel strong, while some of them still pose a challenge.

Alright I think I'm done with this post. Just a loose collection of my thoughts on level scaling in Bethesda games.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 10:04:38 pm by Ashnal »
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