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Author Topic: I Hate Level Scaling  (Read 18448 times)

pilgrimboy

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2012, 07:25:25 am »

Are you sure that Amalur does it ? I havent played a lot, but it seems to me like you can face very challenging foes if you go in some places too early, and now that i have some decent gear and some levels, i can make short work of the weakest enemies. However, i did notice that the loot was level-scaled to a large extent.

"When the player first enters one of those regions, we clamp all of the region's NPCs to the level of the player, provided he's within the range."

It's a tweak on it, but it is level-scaling. It's the same system Skyrim and Fallout 3 use. Instead of seeing goblins at level 50, we will run into goblin kings.

It bases the characters I fight based upon the level of the character I am playing.
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Alastar

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2012, 07:27:36 am »

The problem isn't level scaling, the problem is bad design.

One problem is overdoing it. Sometimes an area should be associated with a given threat level. Nethack achieved this by having the toughness of the monster was determined by character level + dungeon level. Scaling JUST by character level only makes sense for encounters where this makes sense (e.g.: mercenaries/assassins hired to go after you, when there would be different talent at a different price to choose from).

Another problem is aimlessness. What is an encounter supposed to be - a challenge, filler or a possible setback? Too many true challenges get old (especially if save/reload abuse becomes inevitable). Too much filler gets boring. Something in between is often possible with opponents that are no match but troublesome if not taken seriously. Example: hard-hitting sneak attackers, icky opponents with lasting but not reload-worthy status effects.

Another problem is breaking believability. Sometimes you can weave straight scaling into the plot, but if random mooks suddenly become much stronger and tout fancy gear I want an explanation.  If your personal fame/infamy is a plot point, you can do something more plausible: Random mooks now come prepared for hero killing. Traps, poison, single-use items, organised ambushes... if the combat system has any depth it should have equalisers.
You still get the gratification of your character progression (once you get past their dirty tricks, the opponents are clearly outmatched), you still get ongoing challenges, and they won't distract from the elite opponents woven into the plot that can still match you on raw power.

In a nutshell, the problem is designers thinking in game terms instead of considering what they want and modeling it.
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pilgrimboy

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2012, 07:32:12 am »

I just started playing Fallout 3, and I am reminded why I hate level scaling. I didn't like it in Skyrim. (Setting the level encounters based upon when you enter and having you fight characters with different names and a slightly tweaked appearance is still level scaling.) I thought I would check out Kingdoms of Aramur, but they do the same thing.

Sometimes I want to walk into an area and be "the man", but it never happens. It seems like the world is just a continual struggle, just like it was at the very beginning.

Every time I hear this I am reminded of this quote: "The Warrior Caste loves to win and hates to lose."

I don't mind losing. I'm a dwarf fortress fan. Losing really is fun. I just mind every battle being as difficult as the last battle.
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Virtz

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2012, 07:54:00 am »

Some of you need to play Gothic 1 or 2 some time.

How does the player know an area is dangerous? He wanders into it, finds something that can kick his ass and runs away, only to return once he's stronger to enact vengeance. Alternatively you can have NPCs warn you, tell you about the areas and how the creature danger hierarchy works. Or the areas preceeding the even harder areas can have enemies that are beatable, but just barely. That'd make the player think "Hm, maybe I shouldn't go further yet."... unless he's stupid. I guess then you can put up obvious warnings like the level a quest in that area was meant for (like Borderlands does).

Any of these options is better than Bethesda-style level scaling as far as I'm concerned. Cause if everything's scaled to your level, then what's the point of gaining levels at all? You're not gaining experience to beat anything, cause you can already beat everyone in the world at the moment. You're not going to overpower anyone, cause they're constantly gaining in level as well.

I'd be tempted to say the game is no longer an RPG and is now an Action-Adventure game, but even those usually have some difficulty curve. This is just screwing up basic game design.
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Alastar

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2012, 08:17:44 am »

Ah, Gothic... great memories of being chased around by orks. Or wildlife. Life as a lowbie was definitely interesting, in a good way!

I definitely think that level scaling should be understated if it exists at all and that Bethesda drops the ball on it (imo they're failing game design all over the place. History: Start with a broken but immense and wide-open sandbox, strip away everything that made it special over the years, in a vain attempt to get something that resembles balance or polish).

Drawing attention to target level feels both gamey and condescending.
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lordcooper

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2012, 11:17:40 am »

This is the reason why Final Fantasy 8 is ridiculously easy if you don't get any XP.

It's even easier if you just keep one character with a really low level and switch them in for every boss battle.
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Darkmere

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2012, 02:26:11 pm »

So, the options are level scaling which is "meaningless" in an open world game, or a static world design which encourages/enforces a specific path through the world (you go to the zone you're of-skill or of-level for). At least the former tries to keep the world open, the latter is an illusion of choice. If there's zones you can't handle now, the world isn't open. The option of wandering in and getting killed by a level eleventy thousand zombie bear just means you have to go somewhere else to get eleventy thousand and one, then kill the bear for the bear ass collection quest.

At least New Vegas justified it by tensions over the dam escalating and both sides getting ready for the Big Showdown. Nothing about Skyrim seemed different enough to warrant my interest, so I didn't buy it after playing the intro at a friend's place.

How about something like Mass Effect 2? The missions and enemies were static, but they always matched your level and any given mission was available for you at the appropriate plot progression. On top of that, the difficulty levels changed the gameplay starting with enemy aggressiveness and defense layers, finishing out with an AI revamp that rewarded/punished you for not choosing the right party/defensive position/weapon loadout/kill order. I felt it was consistently difficult enough to be engaging, without being overtly gamey or feeling impossible. If you planned properly anything was doable but there was always a possible challenge element depending on who you brought with you and how you played. (Speaking of Insanity difficulty, btw)
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G-Flex

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2012, 02:31:50 pm »

So, the options are level scaling which is "meaningless" in an open world game, or a static world design which encourages/enforces a specific path through the world (you go to the zone you're of-skill or of-level for). At least the former tries to keep the world open, the latter is an illusion of choice. If there's zones you can't handle now, the world isn't open.

Why does all of a world always have to be open as a plausible option to every character at every point in time? I consider a world sufficiently "open" even if not every single place is necessarily a good idea to visit at every single point in time.

Saying "some choices would be bad" does not mean the player doesn't have a choice. Choice is often more meaningful if they actually put pressure on the player to make good ones.

Quote
The option of wandering in and getting killed by a level eleventy thousand zombie bear just means you have to go somewhere else to get eleventy thousand and one, then kill the bear for the bear ass collection quest.

This assumes things, and those assumptions being false fucks up level-scaling hard. First, it assumes that a leveling metric (usually character experience level) applies equally to all characters, which it doesn't; my character being an even better orator or trader doesn't necessarily mean he's more capable of handling tougher bears all of a sudden. Also, sometimes (bear with me here) players like being challenged. Maybe I want to go into an out-of-depth area for a while in order to see what I can scrounge up or how long I can last. Maybe, for example, I'm playing as a sort of stealthy thief, and want to get in over my head just to see if I can get out of it alive and with something good. Maybe I don't want that choice limited by the entire world dropping itself down to my level.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 02:38:12 pm by G-Flex »
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freeformschooler

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2012, 02:39:34 pm »

There's an interesting take on level scaling by A Valley Without Wind:

-The player character does not have a level nor does he/she increase in power on a fundamental level. The only ways to gain in power are through equipment (spells and enchants)
-On the other hand, the world around the player does have a level, which goes up every time the player wins a certain amount of missions and collects the rewards. Every time the continent the player is on levels up, the enemies get stronger and the missions get harder. When the continent gets to level six, the player "loses", and the continent is destroyed. It's a sort of race against time thing.
-Aside from finding enchants of random power/usefulness, the player's main way of catching up to the world is increasing the level of his spells, which is done through collecting increasingly obscure crafting materials. The only way to get some of these is through beating missions, so crafting the highest level of every spell is not feasible at all on a single continent.

It's progression in a sense that your whole goal is to scale up to match the world's difficulty. The bosses in the game always have a set level, so challenging them at lower levels is certainly possible but incredible difficult and unwise. My main problem with it is it still smacks of "meaningless levels" in that each spell level changes nothing but the numbers on the spells. Likewise with the enemies. Personally, I find it better than Skyrim's system.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 02:42:48 pm by freeformschooler »
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Darkmere

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2012, 03:25:35 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I definitely agree about making good choices meaningful, but my experience with path choices seems to be limited. The games I've played with options tended to be equivalent options on the progression ladder as opposed to grander worlds with real choice. I can't think of any offhand where added rewards would be worth the time and hassle to scrape by in a tough place for any length of time. I suppose I should get out more.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Well, ideally you could hire better goons/trade for better gear and that would be your advantage, but games don't tend to work that way, sadly. As for the second, what about areas that would automatically scale over you? Or perhaps a difficulty level change? I guess the first would remove the option to go back and wave a +5 manliness sword at them later on, but I never understood the thrill of that.

Re: A Valley Without Wind

That honestly doesn't sound much different than normal, your toon's progression is just in gear on the paper doll instead of a character sheet. Still, ANYthing new is good.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2012, 06:17:44 pm »

I hate level scaling - I've seen it done well, but only in games with heavy strategic depth and where the games themselves either strongly justify it or otherwise are straightly mechanical.

In most cases, level scaling is an example of bad design, plain and simple. Sometimes the design is intentionally bad, like Oblivion - it lets them focus on other things while pretending to give the player a meaningful progression. It's still bad design, though. Especially since the effective result, for someone like myself, is to insure every area of every region of the game fails to provide a challenge - there is literally nowhere I can go and nothing I can do that isn't boring and monotonous grind the way many of these games handle it.

There are plenty of good ways to handle progressive difficulty without resorting to scaling, even in open world games. And there are better ways to handle scaling than the way most games do it.

1) Have strong enemies that the player can successfully escape from. This lets them learn which enemies they can handle and which they can't. In "strong" areas, you don't need to make every enemy strong - just have enough strong enemies that it becomes a risk/reward thing. Can I get in, get what I need, and get out before I draw the wrath of the Chaos Dragon that roams these caverns? This is even better when the player can put effort and preparation into figuring out ways to avoid conflict - a temporary camoflouge potion, having the enemy be sound focused, having the enemy generally ignore the player unless the player does something stupid and provokes it, have the player pack a bunch of temporary slowing items to give him a chance of escaping if conflict is triggered.

Later on, the player can return and vanquish the enemy in combat if he so wishes, perhaps for those rewards he couldn't get before. High level enemies don't mean the area needs to be completely closed of to him.

2) Low level enemies don't bother the player any more. Have them run away from a strong looking player. In fact, have different behaviours for different enemies that are variants of this, with the key being that players don't need to waste time on monsters that are to weak for them (unless they choose to hunt those monsters down, of course).

3) Have story justified "scaling" based on WHAT the player does, or things that have actually CHANGED in the world, not on how much experience they've gained. For example: The ever present hit squads. If the player killed the last squad with greater fireball, send warriors with rings of fire immunity as his reputation expands. As the player becomes more of a thorn in the side of the local power structure, they dedicate more resources to stopping him, focusing on those units and tactics most effective against him previously. Local bandits who've heard of the hero would obviously be more prepared - you don't even need to scale their levels to make them more of a challenge, so much as modify their build to counter the player. Maybe to such a point the player eventually needs to adjust his strategy rather than doing the same thing over and over again. Basically - rather than scale, /adapt/. Then, when the player inevitably games the system, it feels justified in game - he outsmarted his opponents by misdirecting them as to his true power, after all!

4) It should be visually obvious, in most cases, which enemies a player should consider dangerous and which he can handle. Let the player choose when he wants to tackle tougher enemies, and to avoid those big lumbering beasts that are clearly more powerful than him. Not to say this can't be switched up now and again...

There are plenty of other options games can take - most just don't bother, preferring to fake it and save time and money for something most people don't care about.

Every game I've played with level scaling would only be improved by removing 95% of encounters completely.
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majikero

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2012, 06:42:24 pm »

You could always remove levels entirely and base stats on equipment. That way, better armed enemies are tougher while the common rift-raft have crappy junk. It makes the mooks of the big bad more of a threat than the common thug trying to mug you.
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Kadzar

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2012, 02:03:14 am »

If doing the thing where different enemies or areas are more challenging than others, one thing games could do to let players know what is a challenge and what is not is to take a leaf from tabletop role-playing's book and simply let a player know anything their character would know. So, when you come across a sort of enemy you've never seen before or you're in a certain area, an icon would show up on your screen, and you could pause the game and access some information about it. And if you come across something your character would have no way of knowing anything about, the thing would say, "Shit, you don't even know what this is, you may want to consider running or something." And maybe the game would remember what you had seen of the thing, so you could use that information to do some in-game research about it, if you wanted to. And for things that your character doesn't know everything about, but that he or she could make some assumptions about, you would get your character's best guess, and it would, of course, indicate how accurate your character believes the information to be.
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Sirian

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2012, 07:05:42 am »

In my opinion, most of the problems of level scaling comes from the unrealistic character progression, from wimp to demi-god. Even in games where you're supposed to be some sort of legendary hero (you know, the one from the prophecies...), there is often no good in-game reason for your martial prowess reaching such giant-smashing/dragon-slaying heights, since most of the time any character could have similar abilities, they would just lack the extra powers (like dragon shouts in skyrim). If games were more realistic in their approach of damage and defense/hp, we could get really interesting things, i think. Instead of being HP sponges of increasing capacity, most creatures should have similar HP (maybe from simple to double with max stats), and weapons should be able to kill pretty fast, unless you're facing a real monster (kraken, dragon, etc...), with a proper defense blocking damage completely (ie : 99% of arrows bouncing on your plate armor/shield). It makes the game challenging at all levels (because you too can die easily), yet open (since you can face most challenges from the beggining), and removes the need to have artificial stats/lvls that end up cancelling each other out (ie : more HPs to counter increasing weapon/spell damage).

I think that re-introducing realism makes the character even more epic, especially if they end up slaying dragons for their breakfast.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 07:11:47 am by Sirian »
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Virtz

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Re: I Hate Level Scaling
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2012, 07:20:51 am »

You could always remove levels entirely and base stats on equipment. That way, better armed enemies are tougher while the common rift-raft have crappy junk. It makes the mooks of the big bad more of a threat than the common thug trying to mug you.
Then it wouldn't be an RPG anymore. And I'm pretty sure we're discussing level scaling in that context.

And either way, level scaled equipment and loot is another issue that robs you of any sense of achievement. There's no reason at all to go to random dungeons in Oblivion or Skyrim, cause you're not gonna find anything better there than you would in any part of the world that ain't a boring, set-piece-made dungeon.
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