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Yes.

Yes, but too complicated

Undecided, I will post why

No, it is too complicated

No. (please post why)

[Meph]

Latest discussions and mentioning of a TechTree resulted in a mental exercise for me. To create a TechTree for my mod. Goal is an easily understandable system, which at the same time offers many different approaches and tactics.  Strangely enough, most features are already included in the mod, but not sorted or made an obvious member of a TechTree. I would like to change the system and sort/rename many features, to make it more accessable to the player. Similar to the building overhaul I did for the last version. 90% of the features in this list are in the mod already, one way or the other. I mostly want to give them a better distinction, and the player an easier understanding how good/bad a certain item is.

Tech Tree Alpha Version. Brainstorming.

#######################################################################################
Materials
#######################################################################################
Material Upgrades
   With the implementation of generic materials, the implementation of upgrades is possible
   (all the names are working names and might be changed/are up to discussion)

   Wood => Hardwood => Ironbark => Steeloak
   Leather => tough leather =>  stark leather
   Scale => tough scale => stark scale
   Chitin => tough chitin => stark chitin
   Bone => tough bone => stark bone
   Metal => folded metal => perfect metal
   Stone => Block (we all know that one)

Other possible words: Hardened, Stiff, Solid, Dense, Compact, Solid, thick, set, patternweld, condensed, stainless and anything else you can think of.

This upgrade system for materials should be very simple to understand, because it uses common words. Everyone will know that folded steel is better then steel, and perfect steel better then folded steel. Or tough leather better then leather, and stark leather better then tough leather. It would also be possible to add downgrades, with weaker creatures having weak/thin leather/scale/chitin/bone to expand on this idea. Each material upgrade would take place in a specific workshop, one for Wood (plant material), one for leather/scale/chitin/bone (animal material), and one for metal (inorganic material). Rare creatures like dragon and other beasts would keep their custom materials, to keep epic things epic.

I havent decided what would be used as ingredients, the necessary reagents for an upgrade. It should be the base material, plus an extra item. One step at a time, from Wood => Steeloak would be three steps. Wood to Hardwood, Hardwood to Ironbark, Ironbark to Steeloak.

#######################################################################################
Buildings
#######################################################################################
A note about the new custom buildings used for the high tech gear. All buildings would require a building material that is produced by the low/medium tech version of the same type. I dont know yet how to implement this, but to make a javeline caster you would need a crossbow first. To build a weaponry (working title) you need a couple of metal melee weapons first. To build an armory (working title) you need a couple of metal armor first.

With this simple system, which I use for metals and gems already (only materials so far, the next step as you see would be items) I could ensure that players would go through every stage, and at the same time keep the accessability high. I honestly tried to do the simplest system I could think of, and hope that you agree with me on this point. If you find it too confusing and know an alternative, please feel free to educate me.

I thought about following buildings:
One building to make adv. weapons = Weaponry
One building to make adv. armor/shields = Armory
One building to upgrade Wood. = Sawmill ? Wood Refinery ?
One building to upgrade animal products, leather/scale/chitin/bone. = No idea yet.
One building to upgrade metals and one for alloys. (Might change/use the already included Finishing Forge, Crucible, Arc Furnace and Metallurgist. This will be the most complicated feature)

Javelines would be produced in the already included Javeline Caster.
Gunsmith, Ammunition Mint, Archeologist, Research Lab (renamed?), Gemworkshop and Magma buildings would remain the same. I might put Obsidian Factory, Slade Factory and Magma Siegeworks into one building, to lower the buildings count. The same might count for the Display Case/Weapon display rack/armor display rack. By my count I would keep the same buildings count then. +4 new ones, 6 old ones compressed into 2, and a remodelling of the metal works.
#######################################################################################
Weapons: Melee
#######################################################################################
Low Tech Melee
   Stone weapons, done in stonecutter
   Bone weapons, done in craftsman
   Wood weapons, done in craftsman/carpenter
   
Medium Tech Melee
   Metal weapons, done in forge
      Strenght depends on the metal that is used

High Tech Melee
   Metal weapons, done in custom building
      Strenght depends on the metal that is used
      2 Handed Weapons
      Better versions of vanilla weapons
#######################################################################################
Weapons: Ranged
#######################################################################################
Low Tech Ranged
   Bone/Wood Crossbows, done in bowyer
   Bone/Wood Bows, done in bowyer/craftsman (dont know if something can be added to bowyer)
      Optional bayonet upgrades
      Damage mostly depends on used ammo
   Bone/Wood throwing weapons, done in craftsman/carpenter
 
Medium Tech Ranged
   Metal Crossbows, done in forge
      Optional bayonet upgrades
      Damage mostly depends on used ammo
   Metal throwing weapons, done in forge
      Strenght depends on the metal that is used

High Tech Ranged
   Javeline thrower, done in custom building
      Optional bayonet upgrades
      Damage mostly depends on used ammo
   Guns, 4 types, done in custom building
      Optional bayonet upgrades
      Damage mostly depends on used ammo
#######################################################################################
Ammo
#######################################################################################
Low tech ammo
   Stone ammo, done in stonecutter
   Bone ammo, done in craftsman
   Wood ammo, done in craftsman/carpenter
   
Medium tech ammo
   Metal ammo, done in forge
      Strenght depends on the metal that is used

High tech ammo
   Javelines, 3 different kinds
      Strenght depends on the metal that is used
   Bullets, 2 different kinds
      Strenght depends on the metal that is used
   Special syndromes ammo, 15 different kinds
      Strenght depends on the gems found in the caverns
#######################################################################################
Shields
#######################################################################################
Low tech shield
   Normal buckler/shield, done in carpenter/forge
   Material does not matter

Medium tech shield
   Kite shield/tower shield, done in custom building
   Material does not matter
   Higher blockchance

High tech shield
   Plate shield, done in custom building
   Material does not matter
   Higher blockchance
   fireproof and/or lighter

#######################################################################################
Armor
#######################################################################################
Low tech armor
   Leather/Scale/Chitin armor, done in leatherworker
   Bone armor, done in craftsman

Medium tech armor
   Metal armor, done in forge
      Strenght depend on the metal that is used

High tech armor
   Plate armor, done in custom building
      Strenght depend on the metal that is used
#######################################################################################
Gems
#######################################################################################
Gem Workshop
   Gem workshop requires big gems to be build
   This means a jeweler is needed first
   This means a good gemcutter is needed first
   This means a lot of gems are needed first

   Gem workshop make gem weapons/armor/ammo
   The rarer/more valuable the gem, the better the item
   This means a lot of exploratoy mining first
#######################################################################################
Metals
#######################################################################################
Adv Metalworking
   Adv. Metalworking buildings require metal bars to be build
   This means a smelter is needed first
   This means coke and furnace operator is needed first

   Adv. Metalworking makes new, rare metals
   Adv. Metalworking allows batch smelting

Alloys
   Alloy Building needs any of the adv. metals
   This means adv. metalworking is needed first
   This means some exploratory mining is needed first

   Alloy building allowes new, powerful metal-alloys
#######################################################################################
Magma
#######################################################################################
Magma Tech
   Allows many upgrades for existing items
   Needs magma
   This means a volcano or deep digging first

   Siege ammo upgrade
   Steel upgrades, 4 types
   Obsidian/slade production
   Temple is unlocked
#######################################################################################
Megabeasts
#######################################################################################
Creature Research Lab
   Allows one instant-legendary skill
   Needs a dead semi/megabeast   
   This means you have to kill one first
#######################################################################################
Archeology
#######################################################################################
Archeologist
   Allows instant items, better then steel
   Needs fossils first
   This means you have to do exploratory mining first
#######################################################################################
Hell
#######################################################################################
Hell Items
   Allow super valuable booze and food
   Slow but unlimited adamantine
   Special, powerful pets
   Needs hell breaching
   This means you have to defeat the clowns first.
#######################################################################################

I started this thread to start a discussion, hear what you have to say, and just to know the gerenal consens: If this is a good, or a bad idea. (before I start with actual modding)

PS: Who needs sleep anyway ?

[darkflagrance]

In theory, you could have a different material for each tree, so that depending on where you embarked, you might have access to lumber that makes excellent crossbows due to its high density, or good spears or swords due to its ability to hold an edge in its most processed form, or good armor due to low weight and high resistance to attacks.

However, this would require customizing every tree species in the game...

[Pan]

Applauded for the effort on this, good sir. Posting to follow 

[Meph]

@darkflragrane: I am doing exactly what you mentioned. All trees have either fairwood (light/valuable) wood (normal) or goodwood (heavier/tougher) Then upgrades for the metal-equal types of wood, ironbark and steeloak. No idea how I do these two yet.

[Caldfir]

...
A note about the new custom buildings used for the high tech gear. All buildings would require a building material that is produced by the low/medium tech version of the same type. I dont know yet how to implement this, but to make a javeline caster you would need a crossbow first. To build a weaponry (working title) you need a couple of metal melee weapons first. To build an armory (working title) you need a couple of metal armor first.
...

Well, a simple way to do this would be to have each of those workshops able to produce a "construction block X" which is one of the required materials in construction of the next stage.  You can specify specific objects to be needed to construct a workshop, but you would first need to create an object definition for it - a likely category would be "tools" or "furniture". 

You can also do it the way you said here, with needing a crossbow to build a new crossbow workshop, but that does seem a little odd.  To me it makes more sense to have something like:

crossbow workshop => crossbow production bench => good crossbow workshop

Now I haven't tested this, but these are the sorts of items/reactions needed to do something like this:

Code: [Select]

[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_BOW_BENCH]
[NAME:bow bench:bow benches]
[VALUE:50]
[METAL_MAT]
[TILE:147]
[SIZE:4000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:6]

Code: [Select]

[BUILDING_WORKSHOP:GOOD_BOWSHOP]
[NAME:Good Bowshop]
[NAME_COLOR:7:0:1]
[DIM:3:3]
[WORK_LOCATION:2:3]
[BUILD_LABOR:BOWYER]
[BUILD_KEY:CUSTOM_SHIFT_G]
[BLOCK:1:0:0:0]
[BLOCK:2:0:1:0]
[BLOCK:3:0:0:0]
[TILE:0:1:' ':' ':' ']
[TILE:0:2:' ':' ':' ']
[TILE:0:3:'-':' ':9]
[COLOR:0:1:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0]
[COLOR:0:2:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0]
[COLOR:0:3:0:0:0:0:0:0:1:0:1]
[TILE:1:1:' ':' ':' ']
[TILE:1:2:' ':' ':' ']
[TILE:1:3:' ':' ':9]
[COLOR:1:1:0:0:1:0:0:1:0:0:0]
[COLOR:1:2:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0]
[COLOR:1:3:0:0:0:0:0:0:1:0:1]
[TILE:2:1:' ':' ':' ']
[TILE:2:2:' ':' ':' ']
[TILE:2:3:' ':9:' ']
[COLOR:2:1:0:0:1:0:0:1:0:0:1]
[COLOR:2:2:0:0:1:0:0:0:0:0:0]
[COLOR:2:3:0:0:0:1:0:1:0:0:0]
[TILE:3:1:' ':' ':' ']
[TILE:3:2:' ':9:' ']
[TILE:3:3:' ':' ':' ']
[COLOR:3:1:0:0:1:0:0:1:0:0:1]
[COLOR:3:2:0:0:1:1:0:1:0:0:1]
[COLOR:3:3:0:0:1:0:0:1:0:0:1]
[BUILD_ITEM:1:TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_BOW_BENCH:METAL:NONE][CAN_USE_ARTIFACT]
[BUILD_ITEM:1:NONE:NONE:NONE:NONE][BUILDMAT][WORTHLESS_STONE_ONLY][CAN_USE_ARTIFACT]
As well as some reaction to make the bowbench at the normal bowyer workshop, and adding that custom reaction to the entity definition. 

[Meph]

This is a valid solution, but would add custom materials to the game a player would have to learn first. Where to produce, what is needed, and so on. Granted, with the proper naming this is not a big challenge.

The real problem is, that I cant add any reaction to any workshop. It is only craftsman, kitchen,still, quern/millstone, smelter, soapmaker... and thats it. (hope i did not forget one)  I dont want to add a new tech building for every item type, with the only function of producing the needed special building mats.

Keeping it simple is the main goal. As far as it is possible.

[Abregado]

We are also brainstorming this topic at the moment. Trying to defeat the problem that players can just deconstruct a high level workshop to build a different variety. With a little micro the player can access a lot of the higher stuff with only a few of these "Building Construction Blocks".

Solutions we came up with:
Need an artifact matching with the industry you want to "tech up". This means that you have to complete Fey and Strange Moods successfully, and also the tech tree for each fort will be randomized based on what the moods product. Also nicely integrates existing DF "fun"

The construction blocks are manufactured from 3-4 lower tier processes in different industries. Tech3 workshops would need items from two different Tech2 workshops. Example:// Tech2 fletchers tools are made from Leather Gloves, Steel Bar and Glass Vials. Tech 2 Mason tool are made from Cloth Bag, Cut Diamond, Iron Bar. Tech3 Machinist tools are made from one of each of these in either the t2 Fletcher or Mason workshops.

Each "tech level" if using new workshops should rely on the lower tier workshops for materials. Perhaps the lower tech workshops have a "process materials" to create refined materials from raw materials. Tech2+ reactions only have these refined materials as Reagents. Now you have a supply chain and no buildings become redundant. Also increases labour requirements to keep the whole process going smooth. This means you need also to keep a large population happy to sustain high tech industry.

Got some other ideas we are testing at the moment. Will let you know how we go.

[smakemupagus]

I'm not sure that I perfectly understand your idea.

I like the way you implemented leather now, where you get different strength "generic" leather from different creatures.  I think that might work for wood too as long as you left in enough special wood types for some world flavor too.

But what I think you are now proposing is that you could take Wood to a workshop where you turn it into Hardwood.  Then you take the Hardwood to another mill where it becomes Ironwood?  And the same with bone and leather?  That seems odd to me, you can't just stack a bunch of weak bones together to make a tough bone.  I'd be willing to try it but i'm not sold yet.

good luck though!

[Meph]

Yes, this is exactly what I want to do.

NO ONE uses bone/leather/scale/chitin armor later in the game. Metal is much better. This means that the fortress gets clogged up with leather and bone...

If someone can refine metals, from wrought iron => iron => pig iron => steel => stainless steel, why not use a similar system for other materials ? I know that I dont have any wrought iron/iron/pig iron lying around, because it has all been made into steel.

If I can take a specific ingredient, and 3 leather hides to make "tough" leather, then even older fortresses would have a use for it. I would base this kind of industry aboveground (since metal, coal and magma is underground) This way you can play different styles, with a lot of mining, smelting and smithing, OR breeding animals, cutting trees, farming plants (most likely the ingredient I mentioned) and producing metal grade armor/weapons with this.

Breed animal => butcher => make leather and bones
Grow plants => harvest => grind to powder

Powder and leather => tough leather.
Powder and bones => tough bones.
(Same as: Flux + Iron => pig iron)

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

I like that concept of needing a "hardener" or some compound to add to bone/leather to improve it's stats. I would say have hardened leather, then stud it with hardened bone

Powder and leather => tough leather.
Powder and bones => tough bones.

tough leather + tough bone => Studded Leather

and maybe something else to make bone stronger for weapons/ammo

[Gotdamnmiracle]

Why not

metal=> folded metal=> fluted metal

Fluting is where you pound plates into a sort of wave formation looking something like this:

-          ---          ---
 -        -   -        -
   -     -     -     -
     ---         ---

It is a method of strengthening lesser metals (like iron when steel weapons were possible to obtain, if difficult to create.) against edged weapons and dampening force from blunt blows. peircing was still very effective, especially in arrow form (generally the most deadly being shot by a longbow).

[Meph]

Studded leather is a good idea.

I also came up with two new ones:
First one:
Since dwarves and elves have special items in my mod, but humans wouldnt, after I make all this aviable, I would add blueprints.

These are needed for the weaponry and armory, and you would have to buy them once from the humans. This way you cant built it in the beginning, but must wait 1.5 years before it is first possible to get one.

Second one:
Platearmor/gloves/boots/greaves/helmet needs to be assembled from "armor plates" these are made, surprise, out of armor. Take 3 breastplates, get 3 armor plates. Assemble 3 armor plates to one, big, clunky plate armor. This way not the building, but the actual item would require the normal version.

Alternative:
Make armor plates from metal.
Make normal breastplate.
Breastplate + armor plates = plate armor.
Same system in the end, you would need normal armor first.

Similar to the bayonet system. You need a crossbow first, to upgrade it to a bayonet crossbow.

The only problem I see is that the materials might get mixed up, dont know how to solve this. I mean this: Taking a steel bayonet and a wooden crossbow... makes what ? Must be steel, otherwise the bayonet would be wood and useless.

Same for plate armor. Breastplate and armor plates NEED to have the same material, I just dont know how to implement this. Other then creating a custom reaction for every possible material, which would be stupid.

[smakemupagus]

Yes, I think i understand from a game mechanics point of view what you are trying to do, but my feedback was also based that I also want it to feel dwarfy.  i.e. at least a little more complicated than it needs to be, and based on plausible real industries.

In the current game when we upgrade iron it has some of the flavor of a real metallurgy industry.  We don't just take 3 iron bars to make a tough iron, we have to add various other ingredients and make it steel.  It's interesting and fun that the method to upgrade copper to bronze is different.  For the same reason I do like the idea of your archaelogy and arc-smelter (i can't get the latter to work actually in my current fort, but that's a different topic.  probably user error on my part.)

Maybe it makes sense to upgrade wood to strong-wood with powder at an altar, if that's a reaction based on elven magicks or something.  --- But in the case of advanced leather armor industries I would prefer base it on a real or at least "low-fantasy" industry, maybe that you combine leather with scale/chitin to create a lightweight lamellar armor. Heavy plate mail might require leather as a component (for the padding and straps)?  Maybe wood and a chain create a nunchuk weapon that doesn't depend on the metal material and rather than being magical wood, it is more powerful for mundane reasons that it moves fast or has small contact area.

Otherwise, I'd say it's not such a terrible thing if heavily industrial fortresses no longer use a lot of bone and leather for armor.  You could expand on alternate end products to use them, like vellum, bonemeal are already good.

Anyway, it could just be that you have a very different vision for where you go with this, so I don't really want to talk you out of it!  just my opinion.

PS.  A small thing, but the way you use "stark" in the original post.  I think that is technically correct but unusual or old fashioned, I've never heard it used quite in that way before.  I actually think it sounds pretty cool but mention only because you seem concerned with user friendlyness.

[Meph]

I have no idea how usual or unusual the word "stark" is. I know the translation, and I like the sound of it Maybe a bit sentimental, but Stark is also a german word, meaning Strong. I found it in a synomym list for "hardened"

Thanks for the lamellar armor, i never heard of that. It makes perfect sense, to make some of those then.

Fancy stuff from wikipedia:

Boiled leather, sometimes called cuir bouilli, was a historical construction material for armour. It consists of thick leather, boiled in water (some sources hold that oil and wax were used as well, others posit the use of ammonia from fermented animal urine[citation needed]). The boiling causes the leather to be harder but more brittle. The boiled leather can be fashioned into lames or scales to make lamellar or scale armor. The leather remains flexible for a short time after boiling, allowing it to be molded into larger 'plates'.

Leather => Boil leather with oil/wax => Boiled Leather.
Boiled Leather => make lamellar.

3 leather lamellars => One lamellar armor.

This would be quite historictly correct. The oil would come from a plant you grow (what I wanted anyway as ingredient)

More info : http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Articles/Perfect_Armor_Improved.htm

[bombzero]

Hey meph, artificially hardened wood is created in real life by slicing a piece of wood into very thin wide strips, and pressing multiple planks worth of strips into one plank the size of one of the original pieces of wood.

leather can be artificially hardened in a number of ways. easier to implement ones being stuff like scouring (grinding with a millstone like device to scrape away imperfections) which is used to create industrial grade leather IRL. theres also a more complex method which involves taking scoured leather and heat treating it with some kind of powdery hardening agent (dont know the name of it) which makes a very tough durable leather that is most commonly used in expensive leather items that the maker of doesn't want to wear down for a LONG time.

your current idea for weapons/armors/metals is quite nice already.

bone.... hmm possibly a calcite based hardening process, or upgrading it with some other material... other than that i don't know.