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[zomara0292]

possibly. but not all that a human values is "good" in another humans eyes.
I can openly say that i am not opposed to torture, but the use of arms to do do so is a forbidden territory.

[Ochita]

The way I see it, is law and chaos.

Angels uphold the law, and demons oppose it. A human's values are mostly neutral, some being evil, and going towards chaos, while some may be good, and hold the law. Some may be truely neutral, and they can hold the law, for the simple virtue of there being law, although they take no passion in upholding it.

Basically, I prefer the difference of law and chaos, instead of good and evil.

[zomara0292]

. . . . . . . right.
So, to bring us back on topic, What are we doing for this? I will reiterate what I said for conversation starters purposes:

lets use the Shades (not the greater) to gather information from the guards and areas around the market. We ourselves should camp outside and give the solders a couple of days to do what they can while we find out what else is around. See if we can find out about any interesting areas that should be avoided, or that might hide some rebels to draw to use. Or even the influence of Thrane in the area.

[Ardas]

No point in beating around the bush, or using ghosts. most humans are fairly superstitious and a mere a sight of an angel and they will have their heads bowed in prayer.

If we are to save them, we have to do it openly, with their approval. Only evil is insidious.

[Iituem]

Is there actually any reason to believe "good" is actually aligned with human values and well being in any other way than by opposing "evil"?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yeah.  I won't go into the exact process of how physical Good and Evil work (mostly to avoid a] treading on toes and b] writing myself into a corner) but I run this as making a choice between deontology (means justify the ends) and utilitarianism (ends justify the means).   Your M.O. is doing good either way, so you can be an utter bastard so long as it ultimately works out and you'll be fine.  Doing good deeds is more likely to earn you power bonuses, the way that doing evil deeds gained you boosts in Demonhood.

'Good' aligns very well with human values, and there are rewards for focusing on the means ('doing good') and on the ends (expediency).  Essentially, doing bad things to forward the cause of Good may (provided they were also smart things) advance your goals faster than spreading sunshine and rainbows, but actually doing good deeds will strengthen your personal identity as an agent of Good and increase your power, even if it is not necessarily the most expedient of processes.

Remember kids: Impractical but Dramatic has advantages in this game.  Challenging the villain to single combat rather than just slaughtering him with a hail of arrows is certainly riskier, but dear gods will the power boost be worth it if you win.  Giving them a chance to repent and redeem themselves, even if they betray it a moment later and you have to curbstomp them again, earns you brownie points.  Redemption > Revenge for an angel, even if Revenge is an acceptable outcome.

I will be using my own system to judge what counts as a good deed (the act counts, not necessarily the consequence), and if you try to pigeonhole or rules lawyer me into this, so gods help me rocks will fall and crush your allies and if need be Lvantha herself to dust.  Rule number One for me is Pillage, then Burn Have Fun, and try to get the most fun for the most people.  Also some Fun, because this is Bay12.  I don't like and don't tolerate lawyering or arguments that halt or take the fun out the game.  If you want to debate morality, take it to General Discussion.  If you want to enjoy a game about the epic if idealistic battle between good and evil, please, make some suggestions about what to do next!  That is, after all, the point.

And with that, let's table the discussion on values - I hardly saw this much debate over Krnklt's deeds!  I'd like suggestions please.  =P

Edit: Ninja'd!  Keep the suggestions up!

[Ochita]

True. We still have to be careful though. A mans mind is easy to corrupt, so we should keep our ghosts around us, but at the same time, we should keep them in check.

Enter the town, ghosts invisibly following us, we should march to the place of worship, to check the faith in this town. If we cannot find any faith, go to the keep itself.

[zomara0292]

No point in beating around the bush, or using ghosts. most humans are fairly superstitious and a mere a sight of an angel and they will have their heads bowed in prayer.

If we are to save them, we have to do it openly, with their approval. Only evil is insidious.

I did mean have them do so invisibly. No need to rush into the cave to find out there is a be-

True. We still have to be careful though. A mans mind is easy to corrupt, so we should keep our ghosts around us, but at the same time, we should keep them in check.

Enter the town, ghosts invisibly following us, we should march to the place of worship, to check the faith in this town. If we cannot find any faith, go to the keep itself.

Actually. . . . can we send the ghosts ahead to make sure we don't walk in on a possibly bad situation, while having the Great ghosts follow us?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

I propose:

1) Disguise as a human
2) Go to the temple, probably local priest isn't faithful enough

[Ardas]

I propose:

1) Disguise as a human
2) Go to the temple, probably local priest isn't faithful enough

Good proposal.
+1.

[zomara0292]

I have to admit, it is a good plan. But I still prefer the scout, pillage gather, burn expand method.

[JackOSpades]

And with that, let's table the discussion on values - I hardly saw this much debate over Krnklt's deeds!  I'd like suggestions please.  =P

I'd propose this is due to the differing natures of the subject matter.
the Demonhood thread's character is chaotic evil as well as a force unto himself, and as such does as he pleases.

where this threads character is a SERVANT of the gods and a being of Law and/or Order and must follow "the rules" and so we must discuss not only whether we CAN do something but also whether we SHOULD do it as well.


on that note

1) Disguise as a human
2) Go to the temple, probably local priest isn't faithful enough

+1

[zomara0292]

And with that, let's table the discussion on values - I hardly saw this much debate over Krnklt's deeds!  I'd like suggestions please.  =P

I'd propose this is due to the differing natures of the subject matter.
the Demonhood thread's character is chaotic evil as well as a force unto himself, and as such does as he pleases.

where this threads character is a SERVANT of the gods and a being of Law and/or Order and must follow "the rules" and so we must discuss not only whether we CAN do something but also whether we SHOULD do it as well.

Well said. Though I am not that far in Deamonhood, yet. I will run across it by tomorrow.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

1) Disguise as a human
2) Go to the temple, probably local priest isn't faithful enough

Also we can do:
3) Try to seduce him, to test his faith

[zomara0292]

1) Disguise as a human
2) Go to the temple, probably local priest isn't faithful enough

Also we can do:
3) Try to seduce him, to test his faith

seduction is beneath an angel of the gods. Lets 'convince' someone else to do it.

[NUKE9.13]

1) Disguise as a human
2) Go to the temple, probably local priest isn't faithful enough

Yes, this.

Also we can do:
3) Try to seduce him, to test his faith

Hmmm. Look, the man is in a town ruled by a necromancer. It shouldn't be hard to figure out if he is faithful or not. We probably won't need to test his faith in this manner.