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Author Topic: benefit of legendary warriors in a new squad?  (Read 1720 times)

simonthedwarf

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benefit of legendary warriors in a new squad?
« on: February 02, 2012, 08:58:55 pm »

so i have a legendary axedwarf, and a legendary hammerdwarf. these guys sparred in a 2 man squad for eternity, and rape any attacks or beasts that show up.

however single they already are maxed out for practical purposes, should i assign them to each their squad of axe and hammer dwarf squads to train up others? is there any benefit? or does a 2 man squad trump even a legendary axedwarf training other axedarfs?
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lemmily

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Re: benefit of legendary warriors in a new squad?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2012, 09:02:10 pm »

I imagine that having a 2 man squad with 1 being a legendary would have some kind of beneficial effect? I've heard(/have a vague memory) that unless the dwarves have extremely high teacher/student skills then sparring is always more effective. But don't quote me on that!
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Nan

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Re: benefit of legendary warriors in a new squad?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2012, 09:21:55 pm »

A 2 man squad absolutely trumps even a legendary axedwarf training other axedwarfs.

Personally I'd keep them together anyway. Skills continue to rise far beyond legendary. Perhaps you checked it in Dwarf Therapist and found they truly had maxed out, but even then I'd probably still keep them together. Part of the reason for that, is that it almost guarantees that if you order that squad to do something then there will be at least one dwarf who responds. Even elite dwarves have to sleep and such, after all, but chances are that not both will do this at once.

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NecroRebel

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Re: benefit of legendary warriors in a new squad?
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2012, 10:08:22 pm »

2-man squads of untrained soldiers train faster than a 3+-man squad trained by a legend... But a 2-man squad, one of whom is legendary, will train the recruit faster than 2-man totally-unskilled squads. With any squad, higher-skill soldiers will occasionally train lower-skill soldiers, and they'll wait until most or all of the squad is available to see the demonstration. With large squads, it takes a long time to organize demonstrations, so training goes slowly. With 2-man squads, though, demonstrations are organized quickly, and a demonstration is more effective the higher the teacher's skill that is being trained and teacher skill. So, if you really want additional skilled soldiers quickly and safely without danger rooms, having each master train a single apprentice for a bit is best.

Of course, if you've only got 2 skilled soldiers and need them to deal with sieges, it's probably best to not split them up. Sending green recruits out, even alongside masters, isn't conducive to having them gain experience.
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simonthedwarf

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Re: benefit of legendary warriors in a new squad?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2012, 01:23:52 am »

2-man squads of untrained soldiers train faster than a 3+-man squad trained by a legend... But a 2-man squad, one of whom is legendary, will train the recruit faster than 2-man totally-unskilled squads. With any squad, higher-skill soldiers will occasionally train lower-skill soldiers, and they'll wait until most or all of the squad is available to see the demonstration. With large squads, it takes a long time to organize demonstrations, so training goes slowly. With 2-man squads, though, demonstrations are organized quickly, and a demonstration is more effective the higher the teacher's skill that is being trained and teacher skill. So, if you really want additional skilled soldiers quickly and safely without danger rooms, having each master train a single apprentice for a bit is best.

Of course, if you've only got 2 skilled soldiers and need them to deal with sieges, it's probably best to not split them up. Sending green recruits out, even alongside masters, isn't conducive to having them gain experience.

Very useful post for me. I will make two new 2 man squads.  I hope Toady will be improving this for next patch, because the military is one of the least fun things to organize currently.
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Poindexterity

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Re: benefit of legendary warriors in a new squad?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2012, 01:59:18 am »

check on these 2 legendary fighter's teacher skills...
it matters
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krenshala

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Re: benefit of legendary warriors in a new squad?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2012, 02:21:26 am »

The teaching skill definitely matters.  However, make them the captains of four dwarf training squads, and you can crank out three dwarves of credible skill in under a year, possibly six per year (though I don't know that for sure).  In the process of acting as cadre and training recruits, they will be gaining Teacher skill, so while the first few groups will take the longest, their ability to turn out replacements of credible skill will only increase as the Legends gain in Teaching.
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Aspgren

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Re: benefit of legendary warriors in a new squad?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2012, 05:52:15 am »

If you want useful recruits then just hand out some crossbows. Let them support your masters and their apprentices in battle.
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Deadmeat1471

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Re: benefit of legendary warriors in a new squad?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2012, 06:01:19 am »

Wouldnt they learn teaching skill by being the leader? thus turning a legendary dorf into a legendary trainer?

Is this more beneficial to have a legendary teacher teaching the new dorfs?
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schismatise

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Re: benefit of legendary warriors in a new squad?
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2012, 07:58:17 am »

From my experience, and the 17 different threads on military training i have read, i am so far concluding the following:

- At zero skill level, squads of 2 to encourage sparring is ideal, as sparring gives much more xp than demonstrations at low skill levels.

- However, at a certain level of skills - specifically Teaching, and to a lesser extent Student, Concentration, and the relevant skills being taught - demonstrations actually (finally) start to be more beneficial than sparring. That said, the actual benefit depends on many factors, such as the number of "students" in the squad, the training regiment they are following, what military skills they have already (a green soldier with novice biting will mean that everyone will learn biting, which results in less of the more important skills) and even including things like how often they have to change their equipment or eat/drink/sleep - demonstrations take longer to organise than sparring, and time spent waiting for a straggling squad member is time that could be better spent sparring.

For example, 4 green soldiers are best off in 2 squads of 2. If you have 1 experienced teacher (say level 5-10) who is decent (level 3) with the weapon skill being taught, and 3 green soldiers, you're probably still better off with 2 squads of 2 (perhaps rotate the greens so they get equal time with the "teacher" if you want to keep their skill levels similar). However, if you have 1 legendary soldier, say level 10 teaching, 5+ student/concentration and level 15 weapon skill, and you put him in charge of a squad of 3 green soldiers, and set the squad to train with a minimum of 4 members year-round, and only sleep when in need (instead of at will), the overall skill level of that squad will rise faster than if the squad was divided into 2 squads of 2.

This is just an extreme example. There are so many factors that it's hard to tell where the exact cutoff point might be for ideal squad size, but generally speaking, my approach is: Squads of 2 until you have very good teachers (embarking with teachers is recommended), and then probably squads of 3-6 after that, making sure your squad is training 24/7/365 and stuffing as much into their backpack as possible to minimise breaks, and manually allocating times to change uniform (ie. not using equipment in a uniform until you have enough for every squad member to have the item, then giving them a station order to your equipment barracks, and not making any more of that item so they aren't running off to replace old pieces with new, better pieces).

One advantage of such a rigorous training regiment is that since your squad is always active and always correctly equipped, when you tell all 6 of them to station at the front gate, all 6 of them will be there within moments :)

Edit: lots of edits.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 08:04:17 am by schismatise »
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simonthedwarf

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Re: benefit of legendary warriors in a new squad?
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2012, 08:28:11 am »

interesting
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