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[Gashcozokon]

I'm glad you're willing to see reason. So many people aren't.
How would magma be the key to creating sodium? Midieval civilizations had access to high temperatures from charcoal (high enough to shape iron tools, which are magma-safe), and yet no one used the "carbon+rock salt+heat-->sodium" method to make explosives until the mid-1800s. Once we know why, we can figure out if dwarves can make sodium. Right now, I'm guessing it's something like "insufficient knowledge of chemistry and no reason to think that it would be any use at all, plus a lack of spare people and minerals to spend on pointless experiments." The dwarves still lack the knowledge and reason to think that rock salt heated with coal would be remotely useful, and while they have sightly more minerals than European cultures, the danger associated with cavern beasts, goblins, dragons, goblins riding cavern beasts, cavern dragons, goblns riding cave dragons, etc, is high enough that every clever dwarf would be needed to make traps and the like.

You want to know why, but can often be a case of simply that no body thought of it. And has nothing at all to do with levels of technology.
For example:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Do many of you know that pants had no pockets until the 18th century? People carried purses (even the men), and they wore them on their belt.
It took time for the idea to evolve. They had fabric, and needles, thread, scissors, pants. Every thing required for hundreds of years. but it didn't
happen for a very long time. I'm not going to quote the full history if you want A reference example. you can read about it here.

So, it is true we don't know why not, and will continue to sift the sands of time for a reason. But we do know that they could have.

[GreatWyrmGold]

You know what at least part of the reason is? No one had the time to try random recipies to see if any of them were useful, and they had no reason to think that rock salt+coal+heat=explosive. Those both hold true for dwarves.

[Gashcozokon]

You know what at least part of the reason is? No one had the time to try random recipies to see if any of them were useful, and they had no reason to think that rock salt+coal+heat=explosive. Those both hold true for dwarves.

Ok bear with me please. I need a bit of help from you. And please understand there is no hostility & I mean no disrespect in any way, but try to help me understand your stance on this.

The first line at the top of the page says:

Slaves to Armok II: Dwarf Fortress is a fantasy game. You can check it out at www.bay12games.com. Feel free to discuss any aspect of the game here.

"is a fantasy game." No mention of history anywhere, furthermore while many properties of the game are based on the real world like matter densities, geology, etc. The game itself still isn't about the real world.  So where amongst all the Elves and Dragons, and Atom smashing Bridges, and perpetual powered waterwheels. is the notion that with all the other far more exotic reactions and inventions in the game that something so small becomes unreasonable just because we don't know if it was thought of by humans in real life?

I am respectful of your stance and trying to be as accommodating as I can providing level and thoughtful responses to your questions and challenges, But I think it would be beneficial for me to understand your reasons for your stance. Please and Thank you.

[GreatWyrmGold]

You know what at least part of the reason is? No one had the time to try random recipies to see if any of them were useful, and they had no reason to think that rock salt+coal+heat=explosive. Those both hold true for dwarves.

Ok bear with me please. I need a bit of help from you. And please understand there is no hostility & I mean no disrespect in any way, but try to help me understand your stance on this.

I'll do my best.

The first line at the top of the page says:

Slaves to Armok II: Dwarf Fortress is a fantasy game. You can check it out at www.bay12games.com. Feel free to discuss any aspect of the game here.

"is a fantasy game." No mention of history anywhere, furthermore while many properties of the game are based on the real world like matter densities, geology, etc. The game itself still isn't about the real world.  So where amongst all the Elves and Dragons, and Atom smashing Bridges, and perpetual powered waterwheels. is the notion that with all the other far more exotic reactions and inventions in the game that something so small becomes unreasonable just because we don't know if it was thought of by humans in real life?

Half of those are fantasy elements, the other half are bugs or half-implemented features.

I am respectful of your stance and trying to be as accommodating as I can providing level and thoughtful responses to your questions and challenges, But I think it would be beneficial for me to understand your reasons for your stance. Please and Thank you.

Alright. There are three major reasons that I think dwarves should not be able to make sodium:
1. There are other, more acceptable (to me and the community) explosives that happened to be around in pre-1400s times (which the sodium-refining technique described did not).
2. I doubt that dwarves, despite their slight tendancy towards insanity, would be able to discover various things significantly "earlier" than humans did. If dwarves don't have useful steam power (came before sodium, and is more intuitive), they probably wouldn't have sodium, either.
3. Sodium would ruin the fantasy feeling, IMHO.

That said, while I was typing this, an idea sprang into my mind that would solve all of these issues:
Alchemy.

[Gashcozokon]

You know what at least part of the reason is? No one had the time to try random recipies to see if any of them were useful, and they had no reason to think that rock salt+coal+heat=explosive. Those both hold true for dwarves.

Ok bear with me please. I need a bit of help from you. And please understand there is no hostility & I mean no disrespect in any way, but try to help me understand your stance on this.

I'll do my best.

The first line at the top of the page says:

Slaves to Armok II: Dwarf Fortress is a fantasy game. You can check it out at www.bay12games.com. Feel free to discuss any aspect of the game here.

"is a fantasy game." No mention of history anywhere, furthermore while many properties of the game are based on the real world like matter densities, geology, etc. The game itself still isn't about the real world.  So where amongst all the Elves and Dragons, and Atom smashing Bridges, and perpetual powered waterwheels. is the notion that with all the other far more exotic reactions and inventions in the game that something so small becomes unreasonable just because we don't know if it was thought of by humans in real life?

Half of those are fantasy elements, the other half are bugs or half-implemented features.

I am respectful of your stance and trying to be as accommodating as I can providing level and thoughtful responses to your questions and challenges, But I think it would be beneficial for me to understand your reasons for your stance. Please and Thank you.

Alright. There are three major reasons that I think dwarves should not be able to make sodium:
1. There are other, more acceptable (to me and the community) explosives that happened to be around in pre-1400s times (which the sodium-refining technique described did not).
2. I doubt that dwarves, despite their slight tendancy towards insanity, would be able to discover various things significantly "earlier" than humans did. If dwarves don't have useful steam power (came before sodium, and is more intuitive), they probably wouldn't have sodium, either.
3. Sodium would ruin the fantasy feeling, IMHO.

That said, while I was typing this, an idea sprang into my mind that would solve all of these issues:
Alchemy.

There goes that word explosive again. But I'm going to pass on that without further comment.
And you and I have different opinions on Dwarven ingenuity, and fantasy game play.  But I see your side now. Thank you.

Alchemy, of course is the answer. It also solves the problems with Barrels of Blood / Venom / Etc, that other topics cover.
I would be just as happy with Flint as I assume Adventure mode uses. But I see according to the Df-Wiki that Flint came off the Stone list back in 40d.

We know Toady has plans for some form of Alchemy but has reasons for other things first. I suspect something closer to Early Apothecary's as Chemists (not just drug stores, Wikipedia doesn't know everything ) might be more suitable.

In the mean time I have also been investigating other entertaining ideas, like what happens when Gnomes have gnomeblight blood.
That was very educational.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I was using "explosive" as a simple, one-word description of what it is about sodium that dwarves would like. Replacing gnomes' blood with gnomeblight is horrible. I'm glad we could come to a sort of agreement on rock salt+alchemy+???=sodium.

[Gashcozokon]

Sure, It works close enough, and cleans up several of your concerns about purity as well.


The Gnomes are perfectly fine and happy... Until they start to bleed of course
They are kind of like reverse xenomorphs from Alien.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Kinda the opposite--xenomorph blood hurts everyone except the xenomorph.

[Muddy Mudstone]

Sodium was isolated in 1807, by Humphry Davy, by electrolysis of lye. Possible extra use for lye there, but only if dwarven electricity is implemented.

Edit: IANAC, but I see the Wikipedia page says "Sodium will also burn violently when heated in air", so if it can be made in a smelter, that's probably why this wasn't discovered centuries ago. I also see hints that what you'd actually get is sodium carbide.

[Chagen46]

Right now, I'm guessing it's something like "insufficient knowledge of chemistry and no reason to think that it would be any use at all, plus a lack of spare people and minerals to spend on pointless experiments."

Uh...Dwarves have a RIDICULOUSLY large amount of resources and spare people.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Right now, I'm guessing it's something like "insufficient knowledge of chemistry and no reason to think that it would be any use at all, plus a lack of spare people and minerals to spend on pointless experiments."

Uh...Dwarves have a RIDICULOUSLY large amount of resources and spare people.

That's an issue that will probably be fixed at some point.
And, again, why would they think that mixing rock salt with coal and heat would do anything? You'd think they'd get sick of trying stuff around "bauxite" and find some other thing to experiment on.
Also, as I've said: Alchemy. It could create sodium when mixing rock salt with...something. I can imagine a tag like [COMMON_ALCHEMY_PRODUCT:INORGANIC:SODIUM] that would cause alchemal reactions/secrets to be generated at worldgen. Then you could have your alchemists try heating rock salt with coal, ash, gold, blood, etc, and see if any of those makes sodium (somehow), and it would also probably increase the chance of rock salt being the "magic ingredient" in other reactions, so if lead had [COMMON_ALCHEMY_PRODUCT:INORGANIC:GOLD], you might mix rock salt and lead and get either gold or sodium. Or both.

Of course, as Mudstone noted, sodium is rather flammable, so improper laboratory procedues involving using heat to produce it could be quite...Fun...