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[sambojin]

Yet another vague, somewhat unhelpful post by me.

There's a lot of stuff to be considered. It's sort of three or four different questions really. With sub-clauses and stuff to the answers. DF is pretty complex, and much of the testing done and "science" can still be considered somewhat allegorical, random or situation specific. I'll start with questions that I really don't know the answers to, and then give a completely gut-based answer to each point.

Points to consider:

#0. Is the masterwork multiplier 2x? Of what factors? Deflection and damage. Does this multiply shield block rate? What damage? Is it just twice the accuracy (ie: in theory, twice the damage over a certain time)? Penetration, cutting edge, size, velocity, blunt damage? Edge values, 1/2 contact area, sheer strenth, elasticity? Who-the-ef-knows what 2x damage or deflection means. Is it even 2x? In 0.41d it made sense. Now we have the word of the Toad. They are 2x better. He knows.....
My thought is: masterwork is better than non-masterwork (except artifacts, which might be the same). Wow, the wiki at work .

#1. Armour. How much armour? How many layers? How much does armour user skill affect armour usage? Just movement speed? Do enemies go for weak points? Is it somewhat like adventure mode? Percentage to hit, percentage to damage, through armour, actual killy-ness of damage caused? Combat AI is still pretty much an unknown, or at least our knowledge is randomly based (as well as perhaps the combat AI system). 2x deflection? For one piece of armour? It would probably get lost in the background noise of all the other factors. I'd have to say that I'd go for steel over iron.

#2. Shields. 2x deflection or shield block? Do shields do both perhaps? 2x? How relevant is shield user skill? 20% block chance minimum, average or maximum with a normal shield? A change of 20% block to 40% block is huge. A change of 99% to 99.5% is still double (and still massive). It just wouldn't be as noticeable in actual game play. My thoughts: Whether my dwarf is low skill, intermediate or high skill, masterwork makes shield skills better. I'd go for the masterwork iron shield over steel if it really is double block chance. Regardless of weight, shield bash or other factors. Maybe with a preference to moving the shield onto lower skilled dwarves just to add big percentage change block chances to them.

#3. Weapons. Urrk, ummm, help? What weapon? How skilled? How strong/agile is the dwarf? How many of point #0's factors are known? None that I know of, do you? My really, really un-informed opion of this. If the weapon is a spear, dagger, warhammer, mace or pick then I'd probably go for the iron weapon. Probably. The warhammer/mace should be better just due to weapon material (there's still better). Spears, picks and daggers tend to out-perform the "standard" cutting edge material thoughts, so "double damage"(or accuracy) may just put them above normal steel. Or maybe not. Spears/daggers should still penetrate armour about one class higher relatively well compared to normal edged weapons (might do steel sometime, might do iron/bronze quite reguarly). Picks just hit with a lot of edged attacks. So many questions on this one. Masterwork rocks, but so does steel on edged weapons. If we're talking of one dwarf in a squad of ten with a masterwork iron spear rather than a steel, go for the iron. For style points. But steel edged weapons are just so damned good, that if I had ten masterwork iron and ten no-quality steel, I'd probably choose the steel.

That'd be some science that would be hard to repeat tests on.

[mrchace]

i never understood why cotton candy and clowns are spoilers in the first place.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

demons and adamantine are commonplace in games! and as soon as i read you can dig down a large number of Z levels i figured the devs included hell. is there some sort of secret or surprise i missed?

[Mickey Blue]

I personally don't care what terms people do or don't use for various spoilers; that said if people really care about keeping things unspoiled for newbies they'd stop bringing them up ('spoiler code' or otherwise) in threads that are completely unrelated to them.  This thread was about which was better, masterwork iron or steel, it had nothing to do with 'cotton candy' at all.  Even as its moved on to discussing metals and weapons/armor more generally its still doesn't need to be mentioned, anybody who knows about 'cotton candy' probably already knows about its properties or at least knows where to look if they are curious.

I cannot help but roll my eyes when people who have no problem bringing up the various code terms every other post, regardless of whether its relevant at all or not, get up in arms about people using the real terms for fear of them "spoiling it for the newbies!"


As for the OP, all the information has been answered very well by people more knowledgeable then myself.

As it comes to newbies, it is safer to stay off the boards, or at least be very careful about what threads you read, if you don't want to have bits spoiled for you (this is true of games, movies, books, etc).  However given how.. Complex.. Dwarf Fortress can be for a new player I doubt that is a realistic option so the best would be not mentioning things one feels to be 'spoilers' without cause.

Lastly.. Really.. How big a spoiler are those two things these days? I mean back when I started in 40d it was very rare to find even magma, much less 'cotton candy' and other such things below.  It was very uncommon, so having it be a mysterious spoiler can be good.  These days though? If I embark just about anywhere and dig down far enough before long I'll hit the magma sea, get that message about praising miners, and if I decide to go after that miner praisable stuff odds are I'll quickly learn about the last bits.  Its so common these days I'm not even sure it deserves to be called a secret anymore.

[Mimidormi]

With the whole slew of properties we got in the current version, material trumps quality, even if we're speaking of artifacts.

It would be nice to know if intermediate quality level add something to the deflect/to-hit modifier. Seems weird and kinda a waste for an exceptional item to perform the same as a base quality one.


On the spoiler stuff:

The clown analogy isn't random at all. It came from the 40d version of the game, when
Spoilers about 40d. Don't read if you never discovered HFS there and plan to. I warned you.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

dozens of demons were crammed in a relatively small adamantine chamber, like clowns in a car.

I do agree that the analogy went too far, to the point that most people neither know where did it come from. As a forum tradition it backfires even, confusing newcomers, that in turn check the wiki, that redirects them to 'that-certain-place' page (now that's something that should be changed).

It's not about the suspicion. It's about the confirmation.
Most people obviously are gonna suspect about the dangers of Digging too deep, it would be much more surprising to not have such a thing in the game.
Chances are they even know about the game only because they read Boatmurdered, or One dwarf against the world, or those gorgeous comics by Tim Denee. They do know there's something down there, but they don't know exactly how it will influence them (those forts were from the 2d version; the drawings of Oilfurnace could have had some artistic license in them).
Let them decide for themselves if they want to get spoiled or not.

Adamantine by itself is not a spoiler, it's just a metal. You can see it on the stones menu, among the preferences of the dwarves, and as a choice in the metalsmith forge. It has been started to get called cotton candy after the release of the .31 version, because of the candy stick = upright adamantine weapon, and i agree it's excessive; most of the times good intentioned, but, again, with a high chance of backfiring.
Demons as well aren't that spoilerific, they appear in the preferences, and as the occasional goblin master or diplomat posing as avatar of a deity.
Now,

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

hell

is a huge spoiler. Especially the peculiar version of it we have in the game.

We were much better off with just 'adamantine' and 'Hidden Fun Stuff'.

What i do -not- agree with, is demanding new players to not use the forum, players that may want the help of other intelligent human beings and not just the wiki, for a game with such a steep learning curve, just because i can't be arsed to replace the name of a certain place with 'hidden fun stuff'. Of course if they're gonna click the spoilers they have only themselves to blame.

[mrchace]

I personally don't care what terms people do or don't use for various spoilers; that said if people really care about keeping things unspoiled for newbies they'd stop bringing them up ('spoiler code' or otherwise) in threads that are completely unrelated to them.  This thread was about which was better, masterwork iron or steel, it had nothing to do with 'cotton candy' at all.  Even as its moved on to discussing metals and weapons/armor more generally its still doesn't need to be mentioned, anybody who knows about 'cotton candy' probably already knows about its properties or at least knows where to look if they are curious.

I cannot help but roll my eyes when people who have no problem bringing up the various code terms every other post, regardless of whether its relevant at all or not, get up in arms about people using the real terms for fear of them "spoiling it for the newbies!"


As for the OP, all the information has been answered very well by people more knowledgeable then myself.

As it comes to newbies, it is safer to stay off the boards, or at least be very careful about what threads you read, if you don't want to have bits spoiled for you (this is true of games, movies, books, etc).  However given how.. Complex.. Dwarf Fortress can be for a new player I doubt that is a realistic option so the best would be not mentioning things one feels to be 'spoilers' without cause.

Lastly.. Really.. How big a spoiler are those two things these days? I mean back when I started in 40d it was very rare to find even magma, much less 'cotton candy' and other such things below.  It was very uncommon, so having it be a mysterious spoiler can be good.  These days though? If I embark just about anywhere and dig down far enough before long I'll hit the magma sea, get that message about praising miners, and if I decide to go after that miner praisable stuff odds are I'll quickly learn about the last bits.  Its so common these days I'm not even sure it deserves to be called a secret anymore.

Agreed. Completely. +1 for you sir.

Edit: Double Agree with you as well Kard.

[mrtspence]

Iron can't penetrate Steel, Bronze can't penetrate Iron, etc. This is incredibly unrealistic: the force applied to the metal matters more than the metal itself. BUT, that's how it is in the game world.
A dwarf in full Steel Plate + Chain VS a dwarf in full Masterwork Iron Plate + Chain would result, eventually, in either a Steel victory or the Iron dwarf strangling the Steel dwarf.
Now, against organic tissue, I'd go with the Masterwork Iron weapon. And seeing as how, as a Dwarf, you mostly fight unarmoured things, the Masterwork is better.

Not true at all.

Bolts and arrows and, to a lesser extent, some large daggers, spears and some trap components can sometimes make it through armour of vastly superior material AND quality. I've had Goblin Master archers riddle my masterwork-adamantine-clad dwarves with holes with frigging copper arrows. The calculations are almost ENTIRELY based on force and stress/deformation points. It just so happens that since iron tends to bend before steel does, iron weapons don't tend to pierce steel armour (as in real life).