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Author Topic: More realistic metalsmithing  (Read 1765 times)

TantrumTime

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More realistic metalsmithing
« on: August 18, 2011, 12:22:30 am »

Right now, with the abundance of ores, there is no reason to use anything but your highest value metal. If you have gold, your statues will be gold, same with platinum, silver, etc. I have no problem with some embarks having better resources than others, but a lot of depth could be added if metals had more unique proprieties.

Tin, zinc, lead and all the pewters all have very low melting points, so it would make sense for them to be easier to make things with. If metalworkers could make things faster with them (thus gaining EXP faster), they would be more useful. Because iron and steel have high melting points, making things with them should take a longer time. Training weapon/armorsmiths with copper or bronze would be helpful, and there would be a downside to embarking on nothing but magnetite.

I'm not sure how this could be expanded to platinum and adamantine without making them take ages to use, maybe they would require 2 units of fuel because of their extreme melting point?
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nanomage

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Re: More realistic metalsmithing
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2011, 02:27:50 am »

this can be expanded almost endlessly actually.

Of course the degree of approximation we have now is extremely rough, but even if time and coal use would be adjusted according to melting points of metal, we will have still an extremely crude model. Better than before, but still. There are so many things to think about that may be introduced into metalworking as well as melting point, like malleability, hardness of metals, different metalworking techniques: casting, grinding, hammering hot or cold, different furnaces for different metals and so on.
I don't know if a metalworking overhaul is planned, if it is, it would be great if these and many more details are introduced.

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zwei

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Re: More realistic metalsmithing
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2011, 02:55:38 am »

Well, most people actually use lower metals for training purporses.

Because melting low quality outputs and reforging it with more skilled worker wastes lots of bars.

Of course, if copper was easy and faster to work with, it would be more pronounced.

Outside weaponry/armor, same goes for crafts - it is fairly customary to stud hell of everything with low value metals.

optimumtact

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Re: More realistic metalsmithing
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2011, 03:30:52 am »

this can be expanded almost endlessly actually.

Of course the degree of approximation we have now is extremely rough, but even if time and coal use would be adjusted according to melting points of metal, we will have still an extremely crude model. Better than before, but still. There are so many things to think about that may be introduced into metalworking as well as melting point, like malleability, hardness of metals, different metalworking techniques: casting, grinding, hammering hot or cold, different furnaces for different metals and so on.
I don't know if a metalworking overhaul is planned, if it is, it would be great if these and many more details are introduced.

That seems like an unecessary level of detail, while I'll admit that DF is an insanely detailed game anyway, I would only be happy with these things being added if they could be presented to the users in a logical fashion that makes reasonable sense the first time you see it.
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Mickey Blue

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Re: More realistic metalsmithing
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2011, 09:04:45 am »

As others said people already tend to use low value metals for training purposes, mainly cause they are low value (be it things to sell, furniture, decoration, etc).  So I don't think making them be made slightly faster would change that much.  As for making high-end metals slower for the purposes of slowing people down.. Maybe, it wouldn't necessarily be a 'bad' idea, but I don't know that it would change much unless you made them radically slower.

As for abundance of metals seeing as you can adjust your metal amount from (I presume) none to having it nearly everywhere I don't see this as an issue.  People that want a 'metal challenge' can just set the metal amount low.  I know that I have had plenty of embarks since the last release where I have had little or no ability to produce steel (at least without trading) and had to work with whatever other metals I had until I was able to trade for it.
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forsaken1111

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Re: More realistic metalsmithing
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2011, 09:08:50 am »

with the abundance of ores
The abundance of ores is not a good reason to cite. It is now changed by a setting on world gen. I don't see what fun or interesting features would result as a consequence of implementing this suggestion... it would just make people play the way you seem  to think they should play, which may not be the way I want to play.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 09:38:00 am by forsaken1111 »
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sockless

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Re: More realistic metalsmithing
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2011, 12:54:55 am »

I personally don't use the lower metals, as usually I have more than enough iron ore, and it uses just as much coal.

I don't really have any incentive to use cheap metals, even though some of them are better in some respects in real life. Like copper cookware being better than steel. Another aspect to add in would be the metal's oxidation index, so iron would rust, etc.
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Drunken

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Re: More realistic metalsmithing
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2011, 08:10:37 pm »

Another similar suggestion would be that lead causes illness when it comes in contact with food. I realise that this adds little to other metals than lead though,
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Waparius

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Re: More realistic metalsmithing
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2011, 01:32:25 am »

Gold could certainly stand to be useful mainly for decoration or small objects rather than furniture.

 The trouble with studding though is that it takes a lot of work to specify exactly what you want decorated - just because you want to stud a statue with gold doesn't mean the craftsdorf won't turn out yet another gold-studded cloth bag.
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Supercharazad

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Re: More realistic metalsmithing
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2011, 04:46:03 am »

Given adamantine's extreme melting point, it should need it's own, special, hard to make furanace. This furnace would only work with magma, and only on the bottom 4 z levels of the world.
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Lord Vetinari

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Re: More realistic metalsmithing
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2011, 05:28:24 am »

Given adamantine's extreme melting point, it should need it's own, special, hard to make furanace. This furnace would only work with magma, and only on the bottom 4 z levels of the world.

Limits should be based on in-world logic. Why the last 4 z-levels?
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peskyninja

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Re: More realistic metalsmithing
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2011, 05:38:54 am »

Demons  :P
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zwei

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Re: More realistic metalsmithing
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2011, 07:27:37 am »

Given adamantine's extreme melting point, it should need it's own, special, hard to make furanace. This furnace would only work with magma, and only on the bottom 4 z levels of the world.

Adamantine is supposed to be forged before you tame hell...

But it could be a little more expensive, like requre more elaborate setup:

 * Smelter made of magma-safe material
 * Forge with steel anvil

As for costs: Right now, it is four-step process: Mine-Extract Strands-Smelt Waffers-Forge Item.

Magma is not good idea - people set up magma works anyway. If you want to up the requirements, add fuel requirement to smelting waffers. 10 units would do - That would require quite a lot of trees and possibly require trading for them or opening carverns and clearcutting them.

Iapetus

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Re: More realistic metalsmithing
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2011, 11:52:50 am »

As a related issue, how about some tags that grant bonuses (or penalties) to the value of different types of item.

Iron is better than copper for making swords, because it is harder and sharper, but copper is better for making cooking pots and statues because it is easier to work, conducts heat better, looks nicer, and doesn't rust.

So rather than the present system, where iron is inherently more valuable than copper, the base values would be closer (and based on rarity, but iron would have tags like [WEAPONVALUE:200] [ARMORVALUE:200] (the numbers represent a percentage multiplier, so 50=half as valuable, 100=no change, 200=double value).

I'm not sure how many tags would be needed.  Probably just for weapons and armour, because if something makes a really nice must-have ring, it is probably just as desirable for goblets, decoration, and statuemaking. (On the other hand, we could have different tags for all types of goods, so brass would be prefered for instruments, and lead goblets would be near worthless.  This could also encourage diversity in industry, because what would be best to make would depend on what metals are available).
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