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Author Topic: Assassin's Creed 2  (Read 7351 times)

Kay12

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Re: Assassin's Creed 2
« Reply #105 on: June 28, 2011, 02:35:02 pm »

I have a number of problems with your post.

1. No real problems with this, but still, it holds no support for your arguement.

To be honest, I don't consider myself even trying to present an argument. This is just my view on history. As long as you can't present a better alternative for recording history, I find it ironic you're arguing against this.

2. Evidence can be destoried. If someone was determined enough, it is probable that he could destory all evidence of such an event. And this was much more true in Pre- to Early-Modern times. They lacked a vast majority of tech we have today. Perhaps far more then you think.

Evidence can be destroyed, but there are a few problems with that. The more significant, interesting or dramatic an event is, the more people are going to tell each other about it. And by chance, these are precisely the events that historians find interesting. A single unimportant person can and will be wiped out of history effortlessly, but let's consider a bigger event - a war for example. It would take extreme resources to hide that from the future, as you'd have to restore the battlefields, tear down the fortifications, search everywhere to get rid of war letters, diaries etc, and one would still have to speculate the advancements of human technology that might reveal evidence previously unthought of! While things are bound to become more obscure and abstract as centuries pass, it's near impossible to conceal any significant event involving lots of people.

3. You also do not seem to understand Human nature. I say again, would you rather be seen as an Asshole or a Hero in history? Not just for some time, but forever. You also seem to not understand how far history goes back. The Roman Empire Existed somewhere around 3000 years ago. We still know a majority of events about them, such as there Conquests, Leaders, and Culture. We also still know and hate the people who were Assholes among them, and we are not going to forget the Roman Empire any time soon.

History is not about people's personalities nearly as much as it is about people's actions. The same Galileo Galilei who is remembered today as a pioneering scientist was considered to be a prick by many of his contemporaries. Not because his world view differed from theirs, but because Galilei really was a bit of an arrogant, irritable fellow. But we don't consider Galileo to be an asshole, because whether he cursed loudly and was obsessive in proving his enemies wrong is not of interest considering Galileo's role in the evolution of Physics. Furthermore, proper history does not label people as assholes or heroes. To falsify such status, fake merits should be added, and that would require falsifying evidence to support those merits. And ultimately, the person would most likely have to be notable because of these false stories, as to be remembered, these dubious stories should surpass the person's actual merits. I find it near impossible to hire hero/asshole status for anyone. You'd need to falsify too much. To lesser extent, this is somewhat possible today, as rumors spread like wildfire with mass media and Wikipedia and so on. Consider Michael Jackson, the acquitted-in-court yet convicted-in-public child molestation suspect. On the other hand, after a fifty or so years, what have we got? Wikipedia entry that Jackson was acquitted, while the public belief in his guilt is unlikely to last. [/quote]

4. But everyone else will think that it was their harvest report, and since it was nothing of importance to most people, it is not really investgated. And when someone comes along wanting to record the Harvest reports, guess what they will get? As a hint, I will just say that the Ruler may not be so eager to release the truth, and telling that world that he had lied.

So, a harvest report has nothing of importance for most people? Nothing except revealing the amounts of food available for distribution? I say that's more important than most things. Falsifying a harvest report serves a clear political cause - people may be deluded into thinking that they have more food than the other nation, for example. But for those doing the actual calculations on dividing the food, for example, the false version won't do - unless they really want a portion of public to realize the truth by not getting food despite the nation's crops flourishing. Therefore, there are likely to be real equivalents of many false documents, and even if these documents are destroyed, usually government frauds are revealed as the government collapses, or simply later on when everyone responsible has been declared unperson for various causes anyway.

5. You also misunderstand how things back then worked. There was no TV News station, there were no Daily Papers, there were also no civil rights. Another thing is that there were not many historians who wrote History Books, because getting enough information could take Months, Years, even Decades! Combined with the fact that everything was handwritten, and you have not many people willing to take on the task. Rulers could however help, by providing funding and such, as long as you left out some certain pecies of information...
And even if you wrote a history book without any help back then, you still have to deal with a Nation not being so happy with what you provided. Fastforward a few decades, and you have someone wanting to write another history book, but all you have is what the last man wrote into the books. Given that they were funded or "encouraged" to leave out info by another nation, all you would have to work off of is false info.

There were surprisingly many historians, there always have been. Everyone who writes down or otherwise communicates factual information about events is a historian. A few lucky ones have got to write their tales on paper, papyrus or some other material, while some others have passed their stories by telling their friends, who told on their friends etc... and again, the more significant the story, the more likely it was to end on paper. Many other stories melded into mythology and became a part of it. It always has been very hard to suppress word of the mouth, civil rights or no civil rights. While these early accounts are often obscure because things tend to lose detail with time, they are also very hard to systematically distort. And, even if you're able to distort a story so it portrays someone as an epic hero or an antagonistic asshole, you'd have to rely both on everyone believing that it's your version of the story that's true, and that people are actually going to remember your version of the story for ages. And even if your contemporaries believe you that the particular person is the Best Guy Evah, it's possible that people 500 or 1000 years from that think it's just another Hero Myth.


6. History matters far more then how you make it sound. Knowing the past will allow us to learn from our mistakes, and help us preditic the future. If we threw away history like it was nothing, then we would have people making the same mistakes again and again, and maybe even throw another Hitler our way.

I was expecting that, but I don't believe that it's that simple. There are still plenty of unique ways of causing pain and harm. Furthermore, if we consider the possibility that history has been manipulated, it must've been manipulated by some fairly altruist entity to contain a specifically nasty set of warnings in form of events: Racial pogroms, depressions, wars, concentration camps, abusive treaties and civil wars. Either that or then there used to be something REALLY horrible in there that makes a few crusades seem rather cuddly.


TL;DR - I don't believe large-scale manipulation of world history is feasible. I also find applying Occam's Razor handy here - naturally accumulating historic heritage without centuries of fabrication is, by that principle, much more likely than the history being a carefully fabricated lie. Now, can we please carry on the discussion about the game?
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Johnfalcon99977

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Re: Assassin's Creed 2
« Reply #106 on: June 28, 2011, 03:32:58 pm »

I do not think you understand about which time frame we are talking about! And I think it would be appropriate to note the single person in history that will de-bunk your entire theory with his very existance.

His name?

Jospeh. F. Fucking. Stalin.

You know, the Leader of the Soviet Union. Mass Murderer? Propoganda Machine? The person normally associated as Hitlers equal in terms of Brutality? Yeah, that one. This man managed to single-handly kill uncountable amounts of people. He could erase people off the face of the Planet with a single order. And want to know why he was never accused of his Human Right violations by the UN and brought to court?

No one ever knew he did those things in till Gorbachev released thousands of papers, proving him of all those atrocities. Had Stalin burned those papers a long time ago, you want to know what he would be hailed as? A hero. Thats right, he had all of the USSR wrapped around his finger by deciving them into thinking he was a great man. He blamed all of the Genocides and such on Corrupt officals, and yet more increased public opinion by going on "Purges" of these people. He also gandered support as a War Hero after he defeated Hitler in WWII. And saying that the USA and its allies portrayed him as a villian only proves my point, because they had no real proof of it, yet still managed to fool the Public into believing he was a villian. And if Gorbachev had made the documents up and Jospeh F Stalin was this "hero"... well, then case and point.

And I had talked about Hitler earlier? Yeah? Well, Special mention goes to him for covering up all the bodies of the Jewish. Thats right, Hitler also managed to cover up the millions he killed. None of the German Military certainly knew, and not even most Nazis knew (Because not ALL Nazis were really bastards, but thats a different Argument.). Only the really fanatical and loyal to Hitler knew about the Death Camps, because even if I was racist, I'd still have a problem with Mass-Murder. Most other people would agree with me. And everyone fighting Germany certainly didn't know, that is, intill they stubbled across the first Concentration Camp. And Hitler also made a bid to destorying the evidence. He tried to kill all the Jewish people quickly and deconsturct the Camps where so many had died. If he did manage to do it, then we most likely would have never known what happened to all the Jewish people. Sure, people would've caught on once they noticed the suspicious lack of Jewish People in Europe after WWII, but we may have never known for sure.

So, you have theory that it wouldn't, I have historical fact that it can and has (almost) happened.
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Kay12

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Re: Assassin's Creed 2
« Reply #107 on: June 29, 2011, 01:06:21 am »

I never said a smaller-scale fabrication of local history hasn't happened. It's going on right now in North Korea. What's common between North Korea, Nazi leadership and Soviet leadership? Enclosedness totalitarism. Each of these governments hold/held a monopoly of ideology of some sort, permitting limited values from the outside. Believing that the government ideology and their version of history is right was a necessity - people would ket killed or jailed if they started asking for evidence. This is part of the reason why many Germans knew about Death Camps but didn't protest - they believed (or had to believe) that Jews, Gypsies and communists really were better off dead or impounded, because they had no other choice than to believe. Modern Western world is not under the same pressure, unless you believe there to be secret societies or mystic World Governments. Again, I invoke Occam's Razor and assert that there isn't and our history is fairly correct.

And please, for the love of <deity here>, this is a thread about a bloody video game. Let's just stop here, with both of us departing with our respective views on the correctness of our history intact.
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Johnfalcon99977

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Re: Assassin's Creed 2
« Reply #108 on: June 29, 2011, 12:17:26 pm »

You just completely ignored what I had just said, didn't you?

If you had not, I would like to know why you think millions of dead people is a "Smaller-scale" fabrication of history, why you think that the German Public did know about the death camps, when I clearly said they didn't, and why you complete ignored my Jospeh Stalin point. Stalin was hailed as a hero in Soviet Russia, not because the people were forced, but because they really believed the man was, in fact, a hero. So, to put it bluntly, you cannot create an effective counter-arguement for my point and now you are resulting to dismiss the information I have given.

And the topic we are talking about, the changing of history to ones benefit, that is directly related to the game (The Templars changed history in order to change histories veiw on them). So we can continue.
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Kay12

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Re: Assassin's Creed 2
« Reply #109 on: June 30, 2011, 12:51:41 am »

It's definitely smaller scale than anything that goes in the modern western society. I already told you - Soviet Union was an enclosed society. A lot of people must've known about the secret trials and executions (Stalin did not murder them all themself, write the documents and dispose of the bodies). It's just a matter whether they dared to speak or not. And this is where the Soviet Union kicks in - they had a bloody secret police that kept a very close watch on everyone who knew about this. And, as I said, unless you believe that there is a similar secret agency ensuring that we don't pass on unfavorable history, we're not under the same restriction. And, mind you, Stalin's crimes are known, so the distortion of history was in his case very temporary. Didn't last a century, that secret.

The German public wasn't blissfully unaware of people getting killed. An example is Action T4, which was a public campaign. People knew that Jews were being persecuted, because that was a public policy as well. Furthermore, rounding up thousands of citizens without anyone noticing would've been impossible. Whether they were being killed systematically in the camps, I doubt many people were sure, but on the other hand, it was not something to bother about - the country was at war. As long as the Jews were put out of the way, the Germans were happy, as they were told to be.

So, to put it bluntly, you cannot create an effective counter-arguement for my point and now you are resulting to dismiss the information I have given.

Yeah, right. I've read history magazines, spoken to dozens of history students and enthusiasts, watched documentaries, and you expect me to listen to a semianonymous Internet argument when determining my views on history? I can either believe our "official" history, believe some weird "crackpot" theory or believe nothing at all. I seriously prefer the first option.

No, seriously. I'm not going to argue this further because this is going nowhere and even if the game is somewhat about historical manipulation, it's silly to discuss this in a thread about a video game. Any further attempts to flog this horse will be replied as follows: "U MAD?"

Have a nice day.
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Tilla

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Re: Assassin's Creed 2
« Reply #110 on: June 30, 2011, 12:53:48 am »

Can I call this argument over please. Way off topic and it's just you two going back and forth for a few pages now.
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Kay12

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Re: Assassin's Creed 2
« Reply #111 on: June 30, 2011, 01:05:53 am »

Suits me fine. I dislike Internet arguments anyway (as I've tried to say a few times now).

And back to the game - has anyone got an idea on how the bomb system in Revelations would work? I'm expecting something along the lines of that Flash game which allows mixing three different potions into explosives. Very likely be similar to that instead of all 300 being hard-coded bombs, if you ask me.
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Johnfalcon99977

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Re: Assassin's Creed 2
« Reply #112 on: June 30, 2011, 11:32:00 am »

I would like to point out right now that I have seen many a evidence of my theories, and you have shown me absolutely none of your evidence. I would also like point out that the evidence that you gave me has nothing to do with the persecution of Jewish people, and even says, word for word, "Adolf Hitler's secret memo" and "massive secret killing of infants". You have just proven yourself futher wrong by trying to prove yourself right. And you also prove yourself wrong even more by saying that the people who knew about Stalin's mass murders were under heavy watch by the secret police. If they would get shot if they even muttered it, how the hell would he tell people? And I KNOW people did not know about Stalins Crimes, because there were MANY pro-communists before and during WWII, even from the USA, as I have read from what George Orwell wrote (Who lived back then, dare I add!). It wasn't in till the USSR started point their guns at us that the USA started Anti-Communist propoganda. Hell, I renember reading about communist revolts in Spain for the lords sake! You highly under-estimate the power of one person with an awful large amount of power. In fact, speaking of George Orwell, I draw a good deal of my argument from his book, Animal Farm, which I recomend, actually. Futhermore, you said the USSR was a enclosed socity, when they really had a very wide range of influence over a large portion of the world.

My point is that the mass manipulation of history IS POSSIBLE with a firm control over the people and some very loyal followers.


But I'd rather not have "U mad?" yelled at me, so I'll leave my argument at that. If you try and counter it, I'm afraid I have to yell "U mad?" at you back.

And back to the game - has anyone got an idea on how the bomb system in Revelations would work? I'm expecting something along the lines of that Flash game which allows mixing three different potions into explosives. Very likely be similar to that instead of all 300 being hard-coded bombs, if you ask me.
I am thinking more along the lines of "Place the Bomb and Run". After all, I think it would be too repeative and long for some of the people with a smaller attention span, who, unluckly for us gamers who want games less about killing people in the face, currently dominate the consumer market.
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Kay12

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Re: Assassin's Creed 2
« Reply #113 on: June 30, 2011, 11:38:51 am »

I was referring more to the bomb crafting. The devs have revealed that there are over 300 bombs available. There's no way they're all hard coded.
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Johnfalcon99977

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Re: Assassin's Creed 2
« Reply #114 on: June 30, 2011, 11:56:50 am »

Bomb-crafting? I haven't heard that before.

It will be very simple anyway, though. You only need to get the materials, and then you can make it. For the same reasons as above.
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Kay12

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Re: Assassin's Creed 2
« Reply #115 on: June 30, 2011, 12:01:37 pm »

It's probably "mix these ingredients in varying quantities", allowing technically over 300 bombs but with most bomb types being lousy or very similar to each other.

Here's the Flash game. That's pretty much what I expect the bomb crafting to be in Revelations.
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Johnfalcon99977

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Re: Assassin's Creed 2
« Reply #116 on: July 05, 2011, 05:36:17 pm »

You know something, people are saying they would like AC III to be set in WWI, The Revolutionary war, or even have it just be about Desmond.

But personally, I would like it to be set in Feudal Japan, because... Feudal Japan.

Sure, it'd be a bit*h to explain how Sir Mc No Personality got his Linage back there, but still.

I really hope I am not the only one who would like this, and if I am, I hope I converted someone to my hopes.
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Re: Assassin's Creed 2
« Reply #117 on: July 05, 2011, 07:34:14 pm »

You know something, people are saying they would like AC III to be set in WWI, The Revolutionary war, or even have it just be about Desmond.

But personally, I would like it to be set in Feudal Japan, because... Feudal Japan.

Sure, it'd be a bit*h to explain how Sir Mc No Personality got his Linage back there, but still.

I really hope I am not the only one who would like this, and if I am, I hope I converted someone to my hopes.
I actually find that to be a really good idea, but I already now that one of the AC's will be you playing only Desmond as you try to take down to the Templars (I really want to see how they implement guns here)
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Rakonas

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Re: Assassin's Creed 2
« Reply #118 on: July 05, 2011, 09:03:53 pm »

Personally I think napoleon should be a templar, I mean, apparently he has a piece of eden already anyway. Going throughout europe tearing down napoleon's regimes would be great, with possibility for some war of 1812 action to sate those who want the revolutionary war.
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