Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Neonivek]

Well that and now doing very simple tasks are a monsterous undertaking (and actually nearly impossible to learn on your own) and others throw HUGE barriers infront of you for what should be a simple task.

Telling Dwarves NOT to hug the giant? If you didn't before now it can take quite a few minutes proper (and even a minute everytime it comes up)

This also makes the game seem impossibly difficult.

[Dsarker]

I don't really believe that DF is all that complex. I think others have said it before, but the game is a learning cliff not because it's hard, but because it throws everything at you at once. The new player is expected to learn 5 or 6 different industries almost simultaneously to get a "successful" embark going.

This, combined with not only a text based UI (which is scary for many people), but an inconsistant text based UI, all hit the newb at once. This has the effect of overwhelming new players who might have really enjoyed the game if they were given a little more hand holding. Games shouldn't expect you to be an expert from the beginning.

Many of these problems could be solved by slowing the progression of the game down (fewer migrants, more time to start a military, etc.) This could be toggled so that veterans could have a "quick start" game where sieges and stuff come in quicker.

What about, for a quick way of doing it, make everything worth x amount less than usual? Less cash means less migrants, less sieges, while also allowing the newb to embark with greater amounts of needed supplies.

[greenskye]

Hopefully with the new trading rewrite, we'll see a better handling of fortress wealth. As it is now, when playing the game "correctly" my fortress wealth can shoot through the roof and I drown in a sea of migrants (unless using pop caps, which I do). Tying fortress progression to wealth was clever at the time, but it could definitely be a bit smarter about things like migrants, titans, and sieges.

[xRDVx]

Well. While I agree with previous comments saying DF isn't that hard, I must also say that while you can *play*, there will be things you won't know (like mass (un)forbid/dump), among other things (many) things. It is also important to take into account that Losing is Fun, and nobody says you should set up your fortress right the first time nor anything. There is the wiki and the IRC channels, where you can get help if you need.

For me, I wanted to start -- the first problem I faced was to select an easy embark site. Tried the wiki and it didn't satisfy me. Went to the channels and someone helped me and I became a happy player. True, by that time I also learned about DF's motto "Losing is fun" and that it was natural to lose the fortress very early in the first steps of the game, but I was ok with that because there is also no way to win.

The game can and will be frustrating at times, but sometimes less than in other games where you make this one move and it turns out you gotta load your savegame (or checkpoint) or restart the whole level. Sure, you'll lose your fortress but you can reclaim it (usually with some fun combat) or embark somewhere else.

TL;DR: I believe that DF isn't that hard. I think there are already lots of information (wiki) out there to help you, and if you need a bit more help understanding how to start, there is people willing to help you -- you just have to ask politely

[JasonMel]

The wiki is a great player resource, but it's not the ideal way to learn how to play because it's a great way to have lots of surprises spoiled for the player. For us, who are essentially unpaid/paying playtesters, it's appropriate. But is it appropriate for the final version, where you can go to find out how a pump works and end up finding out about pump stacks right away, to pick an example at random?

The question I have is: When the game is "released" at version 1, after 15 years or whatever in development, will there be anyone left who will want to play and hasn't already?

[Urist_McArathos]

Part of the problem I see with having any sort of tutorial mode or guided reclaim is that players have so many vastly different playstyles.  The game allows for many, MANY different approaches to the same problem.  Even something as simple as food: build a surface farm, or underground farm, or livestock, or eggs and honey, or a fishing industry, or forage and hunt like primitive nomads?  Some combination of the above?  What combination?

This doesn't even touch on how interconnected the various industries and jobs are.  If you make honey for drink, do you make wax crafts?  If you go for meat from animals, do you do bone crafts as well?  Or bone bolts instead?  Leather armor or gear?

You could, of course, do EVERYTHING, but that in and of itself is a playstyle instead of simply dumping unwanted bones and wax into a ditch or atom smasher and being done with it.  Someone earlier said that this a game you play over and over and actively learn, and I agree.  Some kind of guide or manual on the basics of what jobs do what and what crafts/goods come from where might be nice for getting true newbies into the groove, but beyond that I don't see much need.  Losing is Fun is the game's motto, after all.  Really, it's the truth: those constant losses are where you have fun, because you learn what works and how to tailor your build to suit your style.  That's where the real fun (and Fun) begins.

[Dsarker]

The wiki is a great player resource, but it's not the ideal way to learn how to play because it's a great way to have lots of surprises spoiled for the player. For us, who are essentially unpaid/paying playtesters, it's appropriate. But is it appropriate for the final version, where you can go to find out how a pump works and end up finding out about pump stacks right away, to pick an example at random?

The question I have is: When the game is "released" at version 1, after 15 years or whatever in development, will there be anyone left who will want to play and hasn't already?

By this time, computers will be advanced enough that it will be like running a flash game.

[Soralin]

The wiki is a great player resource, but it's not the ideal way to learn how to play because it's a great way to have lots of surprises spoiled for the player. For us, who are essentially unpaid/paying playtesters, it's appropriate. But is it appropriate for the final version, where you can go to find out how a pump works and end up finding out about pump stacks right away, to pick an example at random?

The question I have is: When the game is "released" at version 1, after 15 years or whatever in development, will there be anyone left who will want to play and hasn't already?

By this time, computers will be advanced enough that it will be like running a flash game.

Except by that time, the computers will have to run a version of dwarf fortress that simulates things like air pressure and mixing of various gasses of different densities and temperatures, or something like that.

[nanomagnetic]

Dwarf Fortress isn't your traditional game, that much is obvious at first glance. But even after spending time with the game it seems like the forums and the wiki (the community basically) is an integral part of the game.

I couldn't have started playing without having the community's depth of knowledge right at my fingers. And that's something you don't normally see in a game.

And the game didn't really get fun until I realized it was a random story generator. It took succession games and a stroll through legends mode and old write-ups before I understood that. Of course, none of the stories would be interesting without people filling in the details between events in the history logs or in dwarf mode.

I think the insanity of the initial learning curve could be considered part of the game. In the way that a player has to rely on the community to get going, and in the way that the game is really only worthwhile, in my opinion, when players collaborate on a story.


But, there should definitely still be an easy mode embark on a safe pocket world, or something. There should be a quick and easy option to test the waters without your feet getting bit off by a carp. XD

[waerth]

I have been learning the game the "fun" way. Certainly couldnt have done it without the wiki and the community!

The one thing I still do not understand though is how to build a military. It just evades me, even after trying out the different things in the tutorials

W

[Farmerbob]

I have been learning the game the "fun" way. Certainly couldnt have done it without the wiki and the community!

The one thing I still do not understand though is how to build a military. It just evades me, even after trying out the different things in the tutorials

W

I've been playing for years and I can't wrap my brain around the current military implementation - so I just trap things in cages or kill them with weapon traps.  Failing that I burn things to death with lava, encase them in ice, drown them, or turn them into obsidian.

[Dsarker]

40d was easier on the military building, but I really do prefer df2010 for the level of management available. I've now got 4 squads of military, one squad of fortress guard, one squad of secret police. All of them train, and I have my four military squads patrol around the fortress entrance. I'm thinking of upping the number of squads, given that my dwarves seem to be extra lazy at the moment.

[nitus]

I run my military the same was now as I did in 40d. You don't have to use scheduling, you can just toggle squads on or off as before. I don't get what's so confusing about getting them to (m)ove somewhere or (k)ill something. If you can't figure out how to assign them to a barracks or equipment, then don't use barracks at all.


Honestly, though, about the supposed learning curve. There are MANY graphical games that are significantly more complex. They just happen to have a pictographic gui that users are used to, and so it seems "intuitive" to them.
 
For those of us who have played roguelike games for years, like NetHack or UnReal World, DF seems "intuitive."

[tolkafox]

Tutorial island? Anyone?

Without goblins? Someone should make this and spread it around.

I say experimentation and trail and error is the best tutorial. Act like you're a monkey in a room full of buttons, and start pressing them. Eventually you'll start to learn what buttons do what. At least, that's what I did O.o

Learning to play is where most of the fun is at.

[shadowclasper]

honestly... dealing with the learning curve would be MUCH easier if the interface was improved by say, ALOT... a FUCKING lot...

in other news, I've been trying to design a "tutorial" map for players :S not going well right now... I'll get it down eventually ><; but basically the idea is that I want to make a place that has a lot of stuff prebuilt D: or atleast, get... I just had an idea...

going to work on it later today >> I think it might work...

once I have it started I'll post it...