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[Vector]

Meh.  The math department is the best place to find people who would rather talk about Internet than genitalia, and who will almost never use the word "sexy" to talk about anything but, say, theorems.

*siiiiiiigh*

Damn German class.


Cript:

Hurm, must've been someone else, then.  I thought you posted a PDF from the American Pediatrics folks.

[Mindmaker]

Meh.  The math department is the best place to find people who would rather talk about Internet than genitalia[...]

You make it sound, like it was our hobby 

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Cript:

Hurm, must've been someone else, then.  I thought you posted a PDF from the American Pediatrics folks.

I posted somthing from American Pediatrics, but it wasn't a PDF.

[Vector]

You make it sound, like it was our hobby 

Whah?

No, I meant of both/all genders, sorry.  I have bad memories in middle school and even college of girls naming their breasts, randomly talking about how their, er, crotches felt today, talking about dudes' "packages," snapping each other's bras, grabbing each other's breasts, telling people (me) to strip (implied: in a sexy way, because it would be funny), blah blah blah blah.  My dudely friends in high school had some similar habits that they indulged in in my presence (mostly cock jokes), and, I'm sure (given that they told me) other stuff while I wasn't around.

So yeah.  I'm really just not interested in talking about that stuff, and math department folks tend to be better about not auditing the way I dress, too.

I posted somthing from American Pediatrics, but it wasn't a PDF.

Oh.  I thought you must have wanted me to read the actual study where they made their conclusions, rather than just the blurb.  That's why I've been saying stuff about the US vs. Denmark.

[Criptfeind]

I read a PDF that might have been from American Pediatrics for infomation on one of my posts, but as a rule I do not post my sources unless they are asked for.

[Mindmaker]

Oh, I see what you mean.
Well, it's not quite what we are doing here, though.

I've given my best to stay out of this sort of talk during school and social events.

We never even once had a sexualized discussion in my current small circle, until a couple of days ago.
"You'll never guess what I'm discussing on the internet right now..."
Well and since he enjoys taking the contrary position in any of our discussions, including the ones where he agrees with me, and is circumcised himself due to phimosis, we discussed it at great lenghts.

I blame my medication.
Normally I would blush, get nervous and embarassed, even if it was only over the internet and I would try to get out of that situation.
Oh well... looks like I can at least discuss it in a factual manner now, I guess.

[Leafsnail]

Anyway, I wish to crystallize my position a bit more, because like always what I say and what I believe may not have a direct connection. I believe that circumcision at birth is a pretty blatant step on rights. But on the other hand I feel it is so unimportant that I would not advocate something like legislation against it.

I'd say I pretty much agree with this.  Legislation would almost certainly do more harm than good, but I definitely wouldn't advocate nonmedical circumcision on those too young to consent.

[Mindmaker]

Anyway, I wish to crystallize my position a bit more, because like always what I say and what I believe may not have a direct connection. I believe that circumcision at birth is a pretty blatant step on rights. But on the other hand I feel it is so unimportant that I would not advocate something like legislation against it.

I'd say I pretty much agree with this.  Legislation would almost certainly do more harm than good, but I definitely wouldn't advocate nonmedical circumcision on those too young to consent.

This has been my position all along.

[Criptfeind]

Stop saying what I say only in a better shorter way Leafsnail.

Like every thread. Man.

Also, as I was about to post this, I realized that you some may not understand I am joking, so although it does ruin the joke, for me at least, I am joking.

[Mindmaker]

I haven't discarded any studies, or posted any of my own... 

Well, you used "so far" on several occasions, which sounded like you were familiar with the whole discussion here and nothing (of importance) had been posted.
At least this is how I percieved the usage of it.

Nearly forgot about this one...

[SalmonGod]

Because almost everything I said was based on personal experience, previous encounters with the subject, and (admitted) preconceptions.  I came to the discussion late, and it was already a long thread, so I missed most of the links to studies.  Allusions to them only ever pointed out a myth-busting of beneficial claims until recently.

Edit:  Almost forgot to mention:  I'm reading the link you posted Mindmaker.  I'm like halfway through it.  Reading something large while at work isn't as easy as glancing to catch up on a few lines of text every one in a while... and the site crashes on me a few seconds after I load it.  I have to load, scroll to where I'm at, move the error box to the side, read a couple paragraphs, close the window, and then load it up again when I want to read a couple more   I so very much wish my workplace would move on from IE6.

[Mindmaker]

Well, just post your thoughts once you're done with it.
Now that we cleared the misunderstanding, I can argue without getting emotional.

[SalmonGod]

Ok.  So I finished reading it, and I'm much more open to the discussion now.  I'm more aware of potential negatives to the operation, and I'm wondering more just how widespread those issues really are.  It's really bizarre to me to think that there could be major widespread issues with it, when I'm pretty sure all of the males in my family (comprising dozens) are circumcised and I've never seen any reason to believe there were related problems.

I can't help but question potential bias based on the organization publishing the study, but I abhorr rejection of sources as a debate tactic and I honestly don't doubt their more concrete points.

What I do question is some of what I'd see as dramatization, such as the descriptions of psychological damage and anguish.  I could understand reasoning that hindered sensitivity and the like results in some sexual frustration, but if that's all it takes to push a person into some of the extremes described in the study, I'm lead to think that points to other issues...  I would have also liked to see some of the supposed connections with broader social issues posed as questions rather than assertions.  Likewise with some other points such as the permanent psychological effect of associating pain with pleasure, which I saw as purely speculation.  These were definitely interesting thoughts that I am not casting out, but I'm not ready to get zealous about them.

At this point, I would like to see more awareness raised on this issue and some larger studies, including some of the ones proposed in this article.  Of course, this isn't very realistic, given american culture's ultra private attitudes regarding sexuality.

I would also like to see a more neutral tone overall on the subject.  Using emotionally loaded words (such as mutilation and barbaric) to attack something that a person has grown up with as a normalcy naturally puts them on the defensive.

[Mindmaker]

Well the study itself admits that the participants were self-informed and applied themself. They also don't deny that a poll with randomly picked subjects would produce different results.

Some of the psychological consequences may be a bit exaggerated, but I can see them happening to a lower degree.
Still, their main objective was to cpature the percieved issues of the subjects, their severity would have best been assesed in another study.

The study itself is rather old and most likely not an accurate representation of the current situation. However my intention was to prove, that there may side effects beyond the more neglible complications during the procedure.

I'd also like to read a more current study on this topic. People are better informed nowadays and the results may be interpreted in a more plausible and accurate way.