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[Bohandas]

Id rather there not be a "Weakbite" and "strongbite" tag of weirdness

A simple "Strength" tag that starts at 100 (for 100%) for natural attacks works just fine and fulfills the roles of making claw, kicks, and punches more powerful for creatures who have better versions available.

This sounds like a good idea.

[thvaz]

Id rather there not be a "Weakbite" and "strongbite" tag of weirdness

A simple "Strength" tag that starts at 100 (for 100%) for natural attacks works just fine and fulfills the roles of making claw, kicks, and punches more powerful for creatures who have better versions available.

If it starts at 100 how could represent a weaker attack than his size would indicate?

If you mean it could be any number, with default 100, then it would work fine, and would work for attacks other than bites.

[3]

If you're proposing a solution that simple, then be aware that such an effect can already be simulated. Heard of ATTACK_VELOCITY_MODIFIER?

[Neonivek]

Id rather there not be a "Weakbite" and "strongbite" tag of weirdness

A simple "Strength" tag that starts at 100 (for 100%) for natural attacks works just fine and fulfills the roles of making claw, kicks, and punches more powerful for creatures who have better versions available.

If it starts at 100 how could represent a weaker attack than his size would indicate?

If you mean it could be any number, with default 100, then it would work fine, and would work for attacks other than bites.

Sorry, yes I meant 100 was the default.

Then there we go! it already is there.

Well except for "Crushing" bites... but Toady can't do everything.

[Tharwen]

Human bites are actually some of the most powerful bites in the animal kingdom.  We have large jaw muscles, short jaws, and our teeth are powerful and chisel-shaped.

Turtles and some other very short jawed creatures have stronger bites than humans, but most carnivores do their damage not with the bite as much as with the tearing AFTER the bite.  A alligator snapping turtle will simply snap your fingers off - human jaws can do the same, but not as well.  An alligator, dog, wolf, lion, whatever, will bite, then shake and twist or rip to do enough damage to tear off or rip soft tissues.

If it's organic and will fit in a human mouth, the human jaw can probably break it.

I believe that weapons already use a system where pressure and area are considered?

Sounds like pressure and area ratings need to be applied with animals, and then adjust for herbivore, omnivore, or carnivore teeth.

Indeed, I had forgot about this fact. Some time ago I had to measure by jaw strength for a tooth treatment and it was way stronger than that of a crocodile. 1200 kgf, I think.

However, we don't have mouths designed to bite in combat. It is difficult to bite something without holding it first, and it happens all the time in DF.

That would make the carnivore / omnivore / herbivore tags even more useful.

Carnivores would be more likely to be able to hit, then would do damage based on mouth size, body size, and strength.

Omnivores would be unlikely to hit, but if they did hit, their damage would be based on mouth size and strength.

Herbivores would rarely hit, and if they did, their damage would be based solely on mouth size.


In essence:

Carnivores use their whole body to do damage with their mouths by shaking or twisting with their entire body.

Omnivores would likely use some part of their body to assist in doing bite damage (grabbing and holding or twisting with arms while biting)

Herbivores, if they bite, will generally not try to tear or twist, they just bite, bite, bite.

I'm not sure omnivores should be less likely to hit. I know it's not the best example, but look at a chicken! It has one of the most accurate bites I've ever seen. It doesn't hurt at all (unless you're an insect), but they will hit if they're trying to.

[thvaz]

Id rather there not be a "Weakbite" and "strongbite" tag of weirdness

A simple "Strength" tag that starts at 100 (for 100%) for natural attacks works just fine and fulfills the roles of making claw, kicks, and punches more powerful for creatures who have better versions available.

If it starts at 100 how could represent a weaker attack than his size would indicate?

If you mean it could be any number, with default 100, then it would work fine, and would work for attacks other than bites.

Sorry, yes I meant 100 was the default.

Then there we go! it already is there.

Well except for "Crushing" bites... but Toady can't do everything.

There is the [ATTACK_FLAG_EDGE]... maybe without it we would have a blunt bite.

Well, then we have a lot of options to simulate proper bites. Toady should rework the raws someday though.

[Neonivek]

Give it a huge edge and it becomes quite blunt I think.

[thunktone]

I'm not sure omnivores should be less likely to hit. I know it's not the best example, but look at a chicken! It has one of the most accurate bites I've ever seen. It doesn't hurt at all (unless you're an insect), but they will hit if they're trying to.

It hurts a bit if they are healthy. I used to work on a poultry farm with both barn and free range hens. The barn hens were quite weak and had soft beaks. The free range hens however could draw blood with a peck to the hand.

[IT 000]

I'm not sure omnivores should be less likely to hit. I know it's not the best example, but look at a chicken! It has one of the most accurate bites I've ever seen. It doesn't hurt at all (unless you're an insect), but they will hit if they're trying to.

It hurts a bit if they are healthy. I used to work on a poultry farm with both barn and free range hens. The barn hens were quite weak and had soft beaks. The free range hens however could draw blood with a peck to the hand.

I can confirm this, I've had quite a few bandaids in my childhood. Status of eating should not effect accuracy. However it could effect their attack priority. Most birds would prefer to snatch.

Id rather there not be a "Weakbite" and "strongbite" tag of weirdness

A simple "Strength" tag that starts at 100 (for 100%) for natural attacks works just fine and fulfills the roles of making claw, kicks, and punches more powerful for creatures who have better versions available.

If it starts at 100 how could represent a weaker attack than his size would indicate?

If you mean it could be any number, with default 100, then it would work fine, and would work for attacks other than bites.

Sorry, yes I meant 100 was the default.

Then there we go! it already is there.

Well except for "Crushing" bites... but Toady can't do everything.

There is the [ATTACK_FLAG_EDGE]... maybe without it we would have a blunt bite.

Well, then we have a lot of options to simulate proper bites. Toady should rework the raws someday though.

You could mess with the ATTACK_PENETRATION_PERC tag and maybe the ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC

[3]

The major problem with the current system is that there isn't any simulation of crushing effects beyond broken bones. Molar teeth that mash and grind are completely beyond the realms of possibility. Making bite attacks blunt just won't cut it no matter what; it's either have limbs arcing about everywhere, have bones broken with little/no surface damage, or have skin/fat bruised and nothing else.

Said effects - as most of you probably know - are considered to be tied to the whole realistic-undead-HP-placeholder-substitute thing, so more realistic bite effects'll become more feasible whenever a replacement for that matter comes into play.

[loose nut]

I'm for the simpler differentiation between predator and non-predator bites. If you model the bites carefully, you'd still have a lot of strange bite behaviors, because you wouldn't be modelling how the animals use their bites (the grab-and-shake of a canine vs. the targeted throat strangle of a big cat vs. a shark that just bites off a chunk, for example – and then you have things like giant cave spiders).