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[Krelian]

Hello, I wanted to ask if anybody knows whats toady's stance regarding the dwarven economy.

I began playing DF with the 0.31 version so I never knew the old system, but I see all arround the game "leftovers" of it, like dwarves storing items in their bedrooms and stuff, and the ability to import "useless" stuff, like instruments and toys.

It sounds a lot of fun regarding the life of a fortress. Dwarves divided by social class, dwarves getting new clothes once the old ones deteriorates, etc.

I read the development page, but I see no mention of it. Either on the caravan arc or on the "rest" list.

I have also read the questions toady has anwered (the one he linked recently) but no one ask about it it seems.

So that, does anyone knows if we can expect the economy any time soon (or at all)?

Oh, and in the wiki, it says the economy was taken down because it was broken. It was broken in a gameplay sense (unbalanced?), or it lagged the computers to much ?

Regards

[Lectorog]

I think he plans to work on it some time after the caravans and markets are "finished." (Finished meaning, being deemed good and not going to be significantly changed for a while, if at all.) Right now it's too broken to even consider using. It's broken in the gameplay sense, but I don't know specifics. With all that it would involve now, there's definitely no simple fix for it.

If you wanted to try it out, it was sort of working a while ago. Can't remember what versions, though.

[Cespinarve]

I think he plans to work on it some time after the caravans and markets are "finished." (Finished meaning, being deemed good and not going to be significantly changed for a while, if at all.) Right now it's too broken to even consider using. It's broken in the gameplay sense, but I don't know specifics. With all that it would involve now, there's definitely no simple fix for it.

If you wanted to try it out, it was sort of working a while ago. Can't remember what versions, though.

40d was the last "working" version of the economy.

[puke]

when did the different Guilds go away?  I think they were gone before 40d, and I feel like those were a large part of the economic dynamics of the game.  You'd have to ballance the need to run an efficient fortress against some jackass craftdwarf union demanding more jobs.

[IT 000]

Well the problem with the economy was that it was based off of quality instead of supply and demand. Even if every room in your fortress was 100 db rent every one of your dwarves had to pay 100 db rent instead of a reduced price because of high supply and low demand.

Additionally the prices were all controlled by the nobles, they arbitrarily increased the price of pants for no reason.

Children also had a problem, they inherited both accounts from their parents. So if both of their parents worked they would be some of the richest dwarves in the fortress, but if both of their parents were legendary they would be one of the poorest. (Legendary dwarves were exempt from the economy.

Guilds were just another way to make mandates.

[Caldfir]

Yeah, I started playing in 40d, where the economy existed, but sucked pretty bad.  Dwarves haven't treated clothing properly in a very long time, and if they aren't buying clothes, then all they can buy is food and rent.  This results in the player being encouraged to build awful little rooms and stock nothing but plump helmets.  Since this is already the easiest possible way to play, this is kind of stupid. 

Plus, коммунистические карлики, are way cooler, right comrades?

Joking aside, I look forward to the point in time where dwarves carry coinpurses around and buy pants and cheese.  Or potentially cheese pants.  Whatever.  My point is that an operational, fun economy is desirable, but before that happens I think it bing completely missing is a blessing. 

[Cespinarve]

Yeah, I started playing in 40d, where the economy existed, but sucked pretty bad.  Dwarves haven't treated clothing properly in a very long time, and if they aren't buying clothes, then all they can buy is food and rent.  This results in the player being encouraged to build awful little rooms and stock nothing but plump helmets.  Since this is already the easiest possible way to play, this is kind of stupid. 

Plus, коммунистические карлики, are way cooler, right comrades?

Joking aside, I look forward to the point in time where dwarves carry coinpurses around and buy pants and cheese.  Or potentially cheese pants.  Whatever.  My point is that an operational, fun economy is desirable, but before that happens I think it bing completely missing is a blessing.

Cheese pants? That's SO DWARFY I AM SO THERE

[Vattic]

The other problem, yet unmentioned, was that crafting coins would work against an efficient economy. Each dwarf's account would rise and lower regularly, the stacks of coins would be broken down into smaller stacks, and in the end more and more time would be spent hauling the ever smaller piles of coins. For this reason people would just not craft any coins.

Yeah, I started playing in 40d, where the economy existed, but sucked pretty bad.  Dwarves haven't treated clothing properly in a very long time, and if they aren't buying clothes, then all they can buy is food and rent.  This results in the player being encouraged to build awful little rooms and stock nothing but plump helmets.

It was so bad that there was an init option to turn rent off and it's still there.

[Krelian]

The other problem, yet unmentioned, was that crafting coins would work against an efficient economy. Each dwarf's account would rise and lower regularly, the stacks of coins would be broken down into smaller stacks, and in the end more and more time would be spent hauling the ever smaller piles of coins. For this reason people would just not craft any coins.

Yeah, I started playing in 40d, where the economy existed, but sucked pretty bad.  Dwarves haven't treated clothing properly in a very long time, and if they aren't buying clothes, then all they can buy is food and rent.  This results in the player being encouraged to build awful little rooms and stock nothing but plump helmets.

It was so bad that there was an init option to turn rent off and it's still there.

well the easiest solution to that would be that "purse" is treated in a variable (like a stat) on the dwarf instead as items (coins). Still I find the minting of coins something fun, as it would give some actual utility to making them, plus give some use to some not very usefull metals. But once a dwarf picks some coins from his wage,
it becomes just a number in his stats. As soon as the dwarf dies, the account reverts back form variable to item, so it can be picked.
The problem is that that sounds like a very un-toady way to do it xD

Thanks for the anwers. Maybe I will ask toady on the question thread, as soon as the monsters thing is released (as asking now would seem a bit off topic xD)

[BronzeElemental]

I always just turned it off in the int file, it sucked enough getting nobles....

[Vattic]

well the easiest solution to that would be that "purse" is treated in a variable (like a stat) on the dwarf instead as items (coins). Still I find the minting of coins something fun, as it would give some actual utility to making them, plus give some use to some not very usefull metals. But once a dwarf picks some coins from his wage,
it becomes just a number in his stats. As soon as the dwarf dies, the account reverts back form variable to item, so it can be picked.
The problem is that that sounds like a very un-toady way to do it xD

So long as re-stacking is implemented and some way for a dwarf to carry enough coins on his person with his hands free it shouldn't be much of a problem. I really like minting coins also and tend to fill vaults with them even now.

[Chromasphere]

I must admit, in adventure mode, I'm a coin collector.  Tend to collect one of each coin I can find in lairs etc and enjoy reading thier descriptions. 

   I will quite enjoy it when the full economy is implemented again.  I think Toady is laying the foundation for it with the caravan arc.  With proper supply and demand etc,  it will have a real base to build on.  As well, if I recall, one of the latest dftalks mentioned something about it... could be wrong.

[counting]

Yep, Toady mentioned about shops and selling/buying food and stuffs in the not-so-empty shops in town design. And there are some mentions of market area design with shops and stockpiles related to caravans (with exotic goods, but not implemented the actual exchange yet). It seems to go in the right direction. And with commodities exchanging network, it SHOULD eventually brings out the advantages and importance of a working monetary system. With that, the economic system will not be excess but a welcome and helping hand.

However I think it's still long way to go with things like price setting and shops mechanism, and also the local-to-long-distance-caravan transaction structure, the semi-working banking/money-flow-control system as well.