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[dwarfhoplite]

I think farms produce too much plants per area. At the moment you can easily feed huge population with ridiculously small fields, so i suggest that amount of products per area should be decreased. One solution is to make percentage of plants die or otherwise get spoiled

[Darkweave]

Search for the improved farming thread.

This doesn't solve the real issue of being able to throw down farms, assign a few planters and forget. If this was implemented people would just put more farms down. In my eyes a rebalance of the way farms work including needing fertilizer and irrigation (among other things) for large scale crop production is required. Farming needs to become a finite but renewable source of food production rather than an infinite source of food for almost nothing as it is now. Even if you reduced yield having to have ten dwarves planting for a fortress of 200 is no big deal and doesn't do DF justice, it deserves a deeper system that's simple to start up for feeding a few dwarves but requires more resources, planning and effort for feeding large populations.

A simple but possibly effective stop-gap solution would be to remove underground crops aside from plant gathering in the caverns and having outdoor plants be exposed to the sky. This would force you to defend your farms from invaders and penalize you for sealing yourself inside the fortress. You could still build walls around the farms but long term this won't work as flying enemies turn up to turn your dwarves in to lunch.

[Something Evil]

Not really; most of my forts have half aboveground farms, with a roof buit over. Works like a charm.

I also support the idea of making farming more complex and management-demanding. Build one 10*10 farm plot, switch 10 dwarves to farming and forget about food production isn't very DF-like.

[Darkweave]

Not really; most of my forts have half aboveground farms, with a roof buit over. Works like a charm.

I also support the idea of making farming more complex and management-demanding. Build one 10*10 farm plot, switch 10 dwarves to farming and forget about food production isn't very DF-like.

I'd like to see the farms ceasing to function with a roof built over them to make defending your farms a greater consideration and more late-game challenge as you're forced to defend your booze production chain (with underground crops removed until a more in-depth and interesting system is developed).

Perhaps we should keep any discussion of this in the Improved Farming thread: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=76007.msg1920005#msg1920005

It's a very good read though I'm only part-way through it myself. There are some excellent suggestions in there though I don't think they should all be implemented.

[sockless]

I think that the best way to do this is to have is so that farms need water, weeding and larger areas.

Farms would have a water level that goes down over time and needs replenishing by a dwarf with a bucket, or maybe 1/7 water on it. They would also have a weed level, which goes up over time, so the plants need weeding, or they'll die or have decreased yields. Larger areas would be required as well, so the farms use 1 seed per 4 squares, and yield maybe 3-4 from those squares.

I know there's improved farming, but that's like a whole arc implementing it.

[NW_Kohaku]

I know there's improved farming, but that's like a whole arc implementing it.

Maybe doing things right will take a full arc?

The arc we're going through now can basically be described as "make trade work right".  Toady is taking his time to perform a major overhaul on the availability of resources globally as a way of setting up the necessary room for the trade routes to have something to trade.

It's a very good read though I'm only part-way through it myself. There are some excellent suggestions in there though I don't think they should all be implemented.

I'm glad to hear it, but if there are things you disagree with, you should mention them.  If there is a problem, something you want to add, or something that is poorly explained, it can only help the thread to hear it. 

That thread is the product of quite a few disagreements over the real problems of the current system, and the problems of the proposed solutions.  Although I put up the main proposal, it is what it is because of constant pushback and argument with a couple dozen people, and a LOT of research on a topic I had absolutely no knowledge about before I became involved in the topic.

[sockless]

Yes, doing things right will take a whole arc. I wholeheartedly think that Improved Farming should be implemented, but the problem is that it will take a long time, and I want better farming right now. The other problem with improved farming is that is sort of relies on Mass and Volume being implemented, which would take a lot of work as well.

[NW_Kohaku]

Yes, doing things right will take a whole arc. I wholeheartedly think that Improved Farming should be implemented, but the problem is that it will take a long time, and I want better farming right now. The other problem with improved farming is that is sort of relies on Mass and Volume being implemented, which would take a lot of work as well.

Well, a LOT of things in Dwarf Fortress are going to take a long time to be done right, and Toady doesn't really seem to be the type for half-assed jobs.

Toady just doesn't ever seem to make the "short, simple" changes that people keep trying to suggest as stopgap solutions.  He either goes all the way with the long, thorough solution, or he puts it off until he is ready to do the long, thorough solution.

I talk about some of the elements of Volume and Mass in the Improved Farming thread, but Toady isn't going to follow my suggestion thread exactly, probably not even closely, and he may not follow it at all. 

Beyond that, Volume and Mass is creeping into the game already.  Look at your large pots, and you'll see they have a [CONTAINER_CAPACITY:60000] token in them.  The game doesn't yet track the volume of items as a part of container capacity, but Toady is obviously gearing up to do it eventually.

[Darkweave]

Yes, doing things right will take a whole arc. I wholeheartedly think that Improved Farming should be implemented, but the problem is that it will take a long time, and I want better farming right now. The other problem with improved farming is that is sort of relies on Mass and Volume being implemented, which would take a lot of work as well.

Well, a LOT of things in Dwarf Fortress are going to take a long time to be done right, and Toady doesn't really seem to be the type for half-assed jobs.

Toady just doesn't ever seem to make the "short, simple" changes that people keep trying to suggest as stopgap solutions.  He either goes all the way with the long, thorough solution, or he puts it off until he is ready to do the long, thorough solution.

I talk about some of the elements of Volume and Mass in the Improved Farming thread, but Toady isn't going to follow my suggestion thread exactly, probably not even closely, and he may not follow it at all. 

Beyond that, Volume and Mass is creeping into the game already.  Look at your large pots, and you'll see they have a [CONTAINER_CAPACITY:60000] token in them.  The game doesn't yet track the volume of items as a part of container capacity, but Toady is obviously gearing up to do it eventually.

Indeed he doesn't but I'd still like to see underground farming removed and above-ground crops altered to require a direct line to the sky in order to grow. As I said it would add a greater challenge to the late game as you'd have to deal with flying enemies a lot more directly or sacrifice your booze production bar gathering in the caverns. I know it won't be done and would be incredibly controversial, doesn't mean I can't say I think it would make things more interesting. 

Have you had any response at all from Toady regarding your suggestions? Have you tried emailing him?

It's a very good read though I'm only part-way through it myself. There are some excellent suggestions in there though I don't think they should all be implemented.

I'm glad to hear it, but if there are things you disagree with, you should mention them.  If there is a problem, something you want to add, or something that is poorly explained, it can only help the thread to hear it. 

That thread is the product of quite a few disagreements over the real problems of the current system, and the problems of the proposed solutions.  Although I put up the main proposal, it is what it is because of constant pushback and argument with a couple dozen people, and a LOT of research on a topic I had absolutely no knowledge about before I became involved in the topic.

I want to hold off on replying until I've gone through everything in the thread. I've started making notes on it and am going to do some research myself before I make any contributions to such an in-depth discussion. Is most of what you wanted to add now finished and if so have you considered uploading it somewhere as a pdf or something?

[Something Evil]

Indeed he doesn't but I'd still like to see underground farming removed

A bit nonsensical imho. Dwarves are an underground-ish race, so having stuff to grow and brew in subterranean farms seems fairly normal.

Another idea would be fish farms. Dwarves could easily be justified in having large underground fisheries pumping out cave lobsters and underground fish.

and above-ground crops altered to require a direct line to the sky in order to grow.

Actually, that would take getting the "Light/Dark" and "Outdoor/Indoor" systems to work differently from one another, or switch back to Dark; Indoor when being covered by a floor.

Also, if you're particularly dastardly, you could write these things off and use grates for a ceiling. There aren't many enemies with shooting attacks and wings.