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[DimmurWyrd]

I have several coal an iron bar and after much effort a pig iron bar in the bar/block stock yet every time I qeue a make steel job it gets cancelled saying no pig iron (when trying to make the pig iron I would constantly have the metalsmith drag the hematite, limtestone, and a charcoal to the smelter then cry about not having charcoal/coke doing that even though at the time I had 6 charcoal in the stock. Eventually he did the job but I don't have a clue why or what I did that made it work (none of the bars were tasked btw) now I have tried for over a half hour to get him to make a steel bar so I can make a darn magma smelter but no luck :/ just keeps saying no pig iron. and he's back to saying no charcoal/coke when I try to make another pig iron in case he wants 2 of those :/

*EDIT* nevermind he finally did it... I had to make a dozen more charcoal before he could find 2 to make the second pig iron. *EDIT*

[ October 13, 2006: Message edited by: DimmurWyrd ]

[Aquillion]

The problem is likely that the bars in question are claimed by other jobs.  If they're outside the stockpile, hauling jobs will almost always keep them from being used for anything; if they're in the stockpile but not in a bin, a queued job intended to drag them to a bin can do the same thing.

The easiest solution, as you found out, is to have many redundant copies of every essential material, but reducing walking-times in your fortress also helps (since then there will be fewer queued jobs to keep items busy.)

Hopefully, in the future a job that actually wants to use an item will be able to override jobs that are just intended to haul it, but that is apparently non-trivial to implement.

[Toady One]

It's just a speed optimization problem, but I don't think it'll be all that bad...  it would just be checking through all the job-tagged items in addition to other items, but there are never all that many jobs running, so it shouldn't be a problem, and once you narrow it down, checking that it's actually tagged with a haul job shouldn't be toooo lag-inducing.

[ October 14, 2006: Message edited by: Toady One ]

[Draco18s]

I've never had this kind of issue, but based on what's making it happen I know why I've never seen it.
I don't use Bar/Block or Finished Goods stockpiles.  And for two reasons:
1) Any thing that would be stored in those piles "piles up" in the workshops instead (no clutter!)
2) My dwarves despise using bins.  Never once have I seen a bin used when using Bar/Block stockpiles

[axus]

My dwarves use bar/block bins all the time, the problem comes when you open your new lava buildings and want to carry the bins closer.  It takes forever, they are extremely heavy.

Material stockpiles do seem like a waste of time except for shops that are spread far apart.  Usually a small wood stockpile next to the carpenter / wood burner is useful.

[DimmurWyrd]

That's kinda the problem... Stockpiles should speed things up not slow them down :/

I think the game needs teamsters hehe... a use for mules and horses pulling small carts that can hold 2-3 barrels or bins and move at more or less normal speeds to move large amounts of goods between stocks.

[Kjoery]

Yeah, what I generally do to speed up the steel making process, is not make any bar storages, and if I discover a bar storage being made, I:
Make a bar/block storage
Have the dwarf move it off the furnature storage
And delete the bar/block storage, and, in extreme cases, turn off furnature hauling.

I'd really like to see a "Dwarves ignore bars/blocks" option, though.

[Draco18s]

quote:Originally posted by DimmurWyrd:
<STRONG>That's kinda the problem... Stockpiles should speed things up not slow them down :/

I think the game needs teamsters hehe... a use for mules and horses pulling small carts that can hold 2-3 barrels or bins and move at more or less normal speeds to move large amounts of goods between stocks.</STRONG>

My thoughts were more like a mine cart.  Built tracks like cannals (can be deleted though!), can build doors over them (a la Disney Land rides), and on it goes a mine card--made of some kind of metal--and one dwarf "powers it" (he sits in it and moves 3+ times faster than normal speed, regardless of load).  Mine cart can only go anywhere there are tracks, but it would still speed up hauling jobs.  Take the haul to the cart, cart dwarf takes it as close as he can to the right stockpile(s), unloads it, and another dwarf finishes the job.  Heck, the initial hauling dwarf might even be allowed to hop a ride.
Issues: Does a mine cart entering the same square as another dwarf cause a collision injuring one or both parties?  If so, there'd need to be an "approaching cart" designation--invisible like Unflood--but causes pathing to path around it or for the effected dwarves to wait for the cart to pass.

[DimmurWyrd]

quote:Originally posted by Draco18s:
<STRONG>

My thoughts were more like a mine cart.  Built tracks like cannals (can be deleted though!), can build doors over them (a la Disney Land rides), and on it goes a mine card--made of some kind of metal--and one dwarf "powers it" (he sits in it and moves 3+ times faster than normal speed, regardless of load).  Mine cart can only go anywhere there are tracks, but it would still speed up hauling jobs.  Take the haul to the cart, cart dwarf takes it as close as he can to the right stockpile(s), unloads it, and another dwarf finishes the job.  Heck, the initial hauling dwarf might even be allowed to hop a ride.
Issues: Does a mine cart entering the same square as another dwarf cause a collision injuring one or both parties?  If so, there'd need to be an "approaching cart" designation--invisible like Unflood--but causes pathing to path around it or for the effected dwarves to wait for the cart to pass.</STRONG>

In a way I like that idea too but more as a "deep mining" type function... For example you are digging out ore farther and farther from your main "city" area so you extend you're rails out to these spots and use the mining carts to ship back the ore/stone.

I don't see it working as a major hauling system however because it's too inflexible for a citywide transport option. (intercity would need a train hehe.) And especially if the tracks require materials to build (wood and metal I would expect.) kinda like bridges 1 tile wide but 1 log + 1 bar for a 3 tile segment or some such... semi-expensive but if the cart could hold 3-4+ stone/ore and move 2-3x as fast as normal unburdened walking speed then I'd say it could be worth it.

On that note carts would take wood and horses/mules would have to be trained to be a carthorse(draft horse?)/packmule hehe. (maybe packmules could just carry 1 item only but do it at normal unburdened speed and need only a bag as a material...

[Draco18s]

quote:Originally posted by DimmurWyrd:
<STRONG>

In a way I like that idea too but more as a "deep mining" type function... For example you are digging out ore farther and farther from your main "city" area so you extend you're rails out to these spots and use the mining carts to ship back the ore/stone.

I don't see it working as a major hauling system however because it's too inflexible for a citywide transport option. (intercity would need a train hehe.) And especially if the tracks require materials to build (wood and metal I would expect.) kinda like bridges 1 tile wide but 1 log + 1 bar for a 3 tile segment or some such... semi-expensive but if the cart could hold 3-4+ stone/ore and move 2-3x as fast as normal unburdened walking speed then I'd say it could be worth it.

On that note carts would take wood and horses/mules would have to be trained to be a carthorse(draft horse?)/packmule hehe. (maybe packmules could just carry 1 item only but do it at normal unburdened speed and need only a bag as a material...</STRONG>

I think the inflexibility of it is why it would be "better."  It makes things faster, but has a limited range.
The pack mule idea (only one item) could "extend" the range of the tracks, essentially in that they can go anywhere, but carry less and "slower."  I envision the mine cart holding at least 1 dwarf and 2 stone/ore/gems (twice as many gems?)
-1 item for +1 dwarf?

As for the materials required, I think it'd only take 1 bar of any weapons-grade material  (inc. brass? gold would be too soft, as would tin, but platinum might work too (expsive rails!)) and it'd go two or three spaces.  A track-piece embeded in the floor doesn't use up much metal.  Floor might need to be smoothed first to use this option.

Wood + rails -> more flexible?  Tear up a piece of track and re-lay it elsewhere easily?  Shouldn't require a smooth floor.
(1 wood + 1 metal still 3 spaces?)

I'd like to hear the Great Toady's thoughts.

[Aquillion]

Here's a better idea:  Why not bump stone hauling down to the level of 'cleaning' in terms of priority or whatever handles that?  I don't know how it's done, but my dwarves never seem to waste time cleaning unless there's absolutely nothing else to do.  Since moving rubble is basically another form of cleaning, perhaps it should be the same way?

...hrm, but the player does need some stone...  optimally, once job priorities are in, the way it would work would be that dwarves would collect stone intensely if their stockpiles were getting low on that type of stone, but do other jobs first in most other situations.