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Author Topic: Found my first magma pipe! help?  (Read 1529 times)

Poindexterity

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Found my first magma pipe! help?
« on: March 07, 2011, 04:50:25 pm »

i know i can build a magma smelter, but do i need to put a hole in the floor above the magma or am i good any ol where?
also, can i build magma forges? y'know, like they dont need fuel either?
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BigD145

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Jelle

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Re: Found my first magma pipe! help?
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2011, 06:46:25 pm »

If you try and place either a magma smelter or magma forge you'll notice one or two darker green Xs in the 3 by 3 construction field. These darker Xs is where your forge or smelter needs direct acces to magma under that tile. They can ofcourse be built on more exposed magma but those are the tiles you need to ensure effectiveness.
The magma forges don't need fuel either.  But if I recall smelting steel will still require fuel, if only half with a regular smelter. Been a while since I made steel though.

Also pay in mind magma doesn't follow the same rules of pressure as water, so managing a body of magma can be easier, if a little more dangerous if things go wrong.
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j0nas

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Re: Found my first magma pipe! help?
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2011, 06:58:09 pm »

Yes, you need a hole in the floor above the magma, and you need that hole to be directly over the magma, and the magma has to be like..at least 5/7 or something to 'work'.  Like someone already said though, make sure you align that hole to where the magma forge will block movement, the darker block when placing the forge, to keep monsters from flowing up out of the magma to rain fire on your parade!
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agatharchides

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Re: Found my first magma pipe! help?
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2011, 07:16:55 pm »

Alternately, rig the area with cage traps to get fire imps for your zoo.
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Starver

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Re: Found my first magma pipe! help?
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2011, 07:30:57 pm »

Just to add to what has been said (and I'm sure the wiki has such details, possibly some I don't know or misunderstand), the smelter/kiln/glassworks workshops all have their magma-bit in the top-central tile of the 3x3 grid.  The magma forge has one on each side of the central horizontal.

I'm sure it used to be that it didn't need magma at that spot, just on any of the eight non-central tiles covered by the forge, but that it was useful to build the spot over the hole you're using as a barrier against magma creatures that tried to climb out.  Not sure if that was true, or indeed true any more, but I've always tended to cut'n'cover according to this plan anyway.  You don't need to expose both magma-forge hot-spots to magma, if indeed you have to directly expose either.

Because of pressure issues (i.e. there are none, or at least fewer than with water), the way I deal with this is carve out appropriate workplaces on the Z I want a particular lot of workshops (can be as high as the Z immediately above the top 7/7ths of magma, but I usually go one or two down from there).  Bear in mind that you'll be digging a magma-duct on the Z-1, so don't mine out this area for storage/minerals, at least if you do so bear in mind that you're going to have to put walls back up again (of anything, even ice!).  But I tend not to mine it at all.

Knowing where, which and how many magma workshops you're wanting, designate a channel in the given spot you're wanting in each of the future-workshops' footprints.  These days, this gives you a ramp (in the old days, you'd need to engineer your own access method, possibly with doors to be closed or places to be walled up again later), down which the diggers can be sent to extend these holes into the full magmaduct.  I make it into a single-width tunnel, with as few kinks as possible, to reach all the down-holes (dug-as-ramps or yet to be dug into, in which case further ramps won't appear if channelling into existing magmaduct), but don't breach the magmapipe.  Keep one tile away, and I tend to engineer it so that one of the tiles (usually up to three, adjacent to the end) is either at a diagonal to the magmaduct, or has itself diagonal access to the pipe.

If you want any raw jewels or ores embedded in the walls of the magmaduct, quickly dig them out and replace this lost wall with constructed wall.  I smooth the entire tunnel wall and floor, but that wastes time.  You do, under my plan, want to smooth that chosen "last tile" separating the duct from the pipe.  I also remove all ramps but the one that (assuming I don't have another exit, ready to seal up) I intend my break-through dwarf to escape from.  Before I'm anywhere near the magma being sent through, I can build over every channel (ramped or not) except the one that I want to escape from.

If you've dug more channels for forges that you now realise you haven't got enough anvils to build for, putting a bridge over the gap might well prevent anything nasty (any fire creature except for fire-vermin, which are unstoppable but generally little more than a nuisance) that gets into the duct from getting out at that point, but I've never seen that happen under my scheme so that may be somewhat more of a precaution than a necessity.

Anyway, with one enterable/exitable ramp into the magmaduct (or another entrance, if you're walling somewhere else up, sufficiently far from the intended break-in point), send down an engraver to carve Fortifications in that specially pre-smoothed separating tile.  The magma will slop in, but (at least how I do it) slowly.  The engraver, and anyone else (especially pets) that wandered down there should now get out of their own accord, but its always possible that someone goes to sleep or finds themselves in the segment beyond your ramp-escape.  Planning for this, or aborting the engraver's Fortification action if it looks like this might be imminent, is really the only solution.  Assigning elsewhere-burrows to everyone except the engraver might be one way of ensuring safety during this segment of the operation, but keep an eye on things anyway.  Once the breach has occurred and the engraver looks to be out of the way (and not in danger of stopping for a snooze, and you did remember to no longer restrict them to the magma-pipe burrow that you'd forced them into, didn't you? :) ), you can build the final workshop.


Wait.  The magma will slowly advance.  Perhaps because of my cautious plan, very slowly.  But it should eventually reach 1/7th at the other end of your duct (hopefully without having trapped anybody or their pets) so that the 'ripples' just bounce back and forth, instead of extending the /7th flooded area, and after it reaches 2/7ths everywhere, you're no longer subject to any evaporation, so it should fill up quicker.  By now, the workshops near the pipe end of the duct should already be 'powered'.

A powered workshop has (I think, though it differs slightly between forges and the other magma-workshops) a red glow to the 'magma-tapping point' that is brighter (or redder) than an unpowered one (I think it needs to be 4/7ths or more, for this, but check the wiki).  While the magma is still flowing, a forge/whatever could be momentarily powered, but the vaguaries of the rippling and moving magma-flow below might make it inactive a moment later.  When a magma workshop is powered, you can start to give it orders, but if the flow dissipates it will auto-cancel these.  If you have Job Manager jobs you might get spammed as auto-added jobs get auto-cancelled and re-auto-added multiple times in succession, but that'll also depend on config settings.  Magma kilns and glassworks can't even hold collect clay/sand jobs when unpowered, I'm pretty sure, and can't be given them until they are.

An unpowered magma forge may mean that a moody metalcrafter (or other smith) might sit around doing nothing even if you've built a non-magma version, from what I've heard and experienced.  As soon as your magma-forge is powered, he'll stop moping around his room (if he has one) and take it over.  The sloshing of magma-levels might or might not make him pause or reverse in his trek there, but if you've done it right he'll eventually be moaning about no metal bars/etc, or getting on with the business of moodcrafting if you have all the wished-for items.


I've not known of any magma creatures to get through the fortifications (although as far as I can tell, none have ever wandered up to them, and certainly with a pressurised liquid flow through fortifications large creatures can be forced through regardless... not sure if this would happen in this case) and if you've capped each channelling spot with either workshop or bridge you should be additionally safe (although I hear that building destroyers now have the ability to target such 'covering' structures of such upward ramps or stairways).  Would be wise to keep an eye on, regardless, I suppose.

Anyway, now you have a working set of magma workshops.  Use them as you will, and can.
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greycat

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Re: Found my first magma pipe! help?
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2011, 07:46:13 pm »

What I do is find the top of the magma sea, and then dig out a rectangular work area in the stone directly above it, large enough for the magma workshops and a metal bar stockpile.  I dump out all the stones, although that's not strictly necessary.

Then I channel out one tile over the magma for each workshop, in the dark green X location, and build the workshops.

I don't allow any other access to the magma.  I'll typically seal up the hole I dug in order to discover the magma in the first place, as it will not normally be in a beneficial place.
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Pukako

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Re: Found my first magma pipe! help?
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2011, 12:46:46 am »

I go either of two ways.

If lazy, find the top level of magma, floor across it and remove (or don't build) the middle top square of every 3x3 'spot' for a workshop.  Build and smelt

Pros; Lazy, lazy, lazy; Little tunnelling needed; instant smelting; can floor or bridge the whole, or part of it, and use it as a very effective front door; Makes for very effective dodge traps.

Cons; Open to attack/disturbance from above (buzzards, giant bats, goblins on giant bats); Puts your dwarves very close to magma, and they will find a way to fall in; cave-ins; various creatures, although I've never had too many issues.

The other way has been well described by Starver.  My two cents;

I choose a level for the forges, close to but not too close to the magma.  Dig out a large area, sometimes with pillars left to define each workshop site.  Plan for 3x3 sites.  Dig a downward stair in a corner, and an upward connecting from below.  Here, dig a series of short tunnels running under the top line of each 3x3 site.  Then tunnel to a corner section of the MAGMA.  Dig out a little room, channel out the three squares next to the magma corner.  Dig out another small room under this.  Place Grates over the channelled squares.  [Smooth] then [Carve Fortifications] the corner section, and watch the engraver (or, hopefully, fish dissector) run for it, up the stairs.

This design caters for faster magma, as it drains into the lower room, through the grates.  These stop Urist McPlays-With-Magma dodging the magma INTO the lower chamber, or being burnt.  Don't make the tunnels too long, intricate or intertwined, as they only start filling to the magic 4/7 level when it stops flowing into new areas and starts filling.  Also, wait until it's stable at 4/7 or above, or with every 'slosh' that it drops down to 3/7, even if only momentary, it will cancel all queued jobs.

Also, if you're going to mine out the layer below your magma plumbing, do it before they fill or you'll get lots of cancellations...
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Poindexterity

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Re: Found my first magma pipe! help?
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2011, 04:14:33 am »

i actually got super lucky and just happened upon a 7/7 20 or so Z lvl deep pool of magma at lvl 16.
im just working on flooring it over so i can get my magma forges going.
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Hans Lemurson

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Re: Found my first magma pipe! help?
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2011, 04:30:55 am »

You don't technicly need to build your forges on the magma-pipe itself.  you can move magma from one location to another with pumps and channels.  However, what you're doing should probably be fairly safe and doesn't run the risk of magma floods and crispy dwarves who bleed out when their fat is melted off.
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Poindexterity

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Re: Found my first magma pipe! help?
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2011, 05:36:11 am »

Puts your dwarves very close to magma, and they will find a way to fall in; cave-ins; various creatures, although I've never had too many issues.

funny you should say that.
mere moments after breaching the chamber, my legendary miner dodged a giant toad RIGHT into the pipe.
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schussel

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Re: Found my first magma pipe! help?
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2011, 05:49:06 am »

safest is still to access from the side .. rigging the original magma tunnel with 2-3 fortifications behind each other then tap it from diagonal above^^ nothing will get at you ever ... wiki will help you there alot

just care to channel the workholes for the shops only when you need them  .. i tend to make a large reservoir instead of channels for the magma and clear the working area above it before i tap the magma, so i can change the working layout and plan it out better (since nowaydays you will need extra stockpile space for pottery material and sand too)...
 if you are clever, already add access into that reservoir in form of side tunnels with  floodgates that you can rig with mechanisms later from the other side  .. in case you want to do magma plumbing
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Starver

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Re: Found my first magma pipe! help?
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2011, 06:32:57 am »

if you are clever, already add access into that reservoir in form of side tunnels with  floodgates that you can rig with mechanisms later from the other side  .. in case you want to do magma plumbing

If I'm planning on tapping (and not by reFortifying a connection from the end of an existing magmaduct, which risks depleting that and cancelling jobs, although a diagonal connection helps) and I can do so right from the start, I try to set up the following (simplified) style of connection:
Code: [Select]
~~########
~~########
~~#X######
~#H~X~~~~~
~##X######
~##+######
~##+######
H = Fortification allowing magma inwards to the junction,
X = Floodgates set up from the start.
  • The middle-right one is on my original workshop magmaduct which I can close to preserve level once the right-hand branch is full of magma, no matter what else I draw out of the junction tile.
  • The bottom one is one that I may shortly be opening to allow a new set of magma into a newly dug magmaduct for some more workshops.  (Theoretically I could open floodgate 1 again to give me a quicker flow, but that risks losing magmaduct 1's fullness.  That'd be an executive decision according to need.
  • The top one is still speculative, at the moment, but allows me to dig up to it for a future magmaduct, or to let me fill a reservoir suitable for magmapumpstacking away (the reservoir replenish rate for this particular design is quite slow, of course)

But, in general, I'm happy just to dig a new magmaduct, with a new fortification 'tap' into the magmapipe, for any such new circumstance as required, creating a 'hairy star' effect around the original magmapipe.  (For this reason, I would generally tap the magma pipe one or two levels below the original surface, to allow for the possibility of non-refilling and thus loosing a significant amount of the top or top two layers of magma.)

But I can also tap the magma-pipe even further down, should I somehow run out of lateral space to expand to (or have to deal with a shortfall of magma levels after significant draining).
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