Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Artzbacher]

Is it possible to collapse several z-levels at once? In order to, for instance, have a tower in a huge pit that reaches hell itself? I understand that this could be done by digging out hundreds of floors, using supports etc. but that seems just as loathsome as simply channeling away layer after layer.

I'm guessing no. But I thought I might as well ask.

[NecroRebel]

Sure you can! You just have to separate the entire mass from the ground, and the whole thing will collapse. My current megaproject will involve dropping a roughly-cylindrical, 20-z-level thick plug into the semi-molten rock. I've just dug and channeled out a ring around the outside, which saves a massive amount of digging.

Note that natural walls, when collapsed, don't just "disappear" unless they're eaten by magma-covered magma flows or hell-holes. Instead, they just drop to the bottom.

Also, note that your "huge pit that reaches hell itself" will A) have to reach only to the semi-molten rock, which can't be dug through, and B) be a megaproject-level undertaking in itself. Digging to the SMR is not easy, given the magma sea in the way. I've been looking at ways to manage getting through the magma layers, but have yet to determine an actual good way of going about it.

[decius]

I'm casting a obsidian caisson around where I want to go down. I've tapped an underground sea with a manually operated screw pump to put a little bit of water at a time out, then channeling through the obsidian down a layer. You can't cast directly on top of the 'magma flow' floor, but you can right next to it, blocking flow. If you can isolate all the magma edges from an area in the center, pouring water onto the magma flow will slowly deplete the magma sea.
I'm using this technique to follow a blue spike as far down as it goes. If I hit FUN, I'll just let the magma AND water flood the hole. "Hey, catch this!"

You could shortcut, I suppose, by 'dropping' a section of cavern into the sea. You would have to have it catch on something other than the bottom. Shape the section-to-be dropped with something that sticks out:

Code: [Select]

#........#
#.######.#
#.####...#
#.####...#
#.####...#
#.####...#
#.####...#
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###At collapse time would become:

Code: [Select]

#........#
#........#
#........#
#........#
#........#
#........#
#.######.#
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
 .####.
 .####.
 .####.
 .####.
 .####.
 .####.If any wall now occupies any space on top of the bed of the magma sea, it goes away. If any wall occupies a space previously occupied by magma, the magma moves directly up until it is in an empty space.

[NecroRebel]

You could shortcut, I suppose, by 'dropping' a section of cavern into the sea. You would have to have it catch on something other than the bottom. Shape the section-to-be dropped with something that sticks out:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

#........#
#.######.#
#.####...#
#.####...#
#.####...#
#.####...#
#.####...#
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###At collapse time would become:

Code: [Select]

#........#
#........#
#........#
#........#
#........#
#........#
#.######.#
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
 .####.
 .####.
 .####.
 .####.
 .####.
 .####.If any wall now occupies any space on top of the bed of the magma sea, it goes away. If any wall occupies a space previously occupied by magma, the magma moves directly up until it is in an empty space.

Cave-ins don't actually work that way. Your second thing would look more like this:

Code: [Select]

#........#
#........#
#........#
#........#
#........#
#........#
#......#.#
#......###
#......###
#......###
#......###
#......###
#......###
#......###
 ......
 ......
 ......
 ......
 ......
 ......
The cave-in doesn't actually stop just because one part of it stopped. The parts that weren't stopped directly just keep falling until they get eaten by something or they are stopped directly.

[Lagslayer]

You could technically make it go all the way to hell if you are willing to go through the cotton candy...

[Sarudak]

Also SMR eats caveins so if you cave in something onto it it simply disappears.

[decius]

You could shortcut, I suppose, by 'dropping' a section of cavern into the sea. You would have to have it catch on something other than the bottom. Shape the section-to-be dropped with something that sticks out:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

#........#
#.######.#
#.####...#
#.####...#
#.####...#
#.####...#
#.####...#
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###At collapse time would become:

Code: [Select]

#........#
#........#
#........#
#........#
#........#
#........#
#.######.#
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
#.####.###
 .####.
 .####.
 .####.
 .####.
 .####.
 .####.If any wall now occupies any space on top of the bed of the magma sea, it goes away. If any wall occupies a space previously occupied by magma, the magma moves directly up until it is in an empty space.

Cave-ins don't actually work that way. Your second thing would look more like this:

Code: [Select]

#........#
#........#
#........#
#........#
#........#
#........#
#......#.#
#......###
#......###
#......###
#......###
#......###
#......###
#......###
 ......
 ......
 ......
 ......
 ......
 ......
The cave-in doesn't actually stop just because one part of it stopped. The parts that weren't stopped directly just keep falling until they get eaten by something or they are stopped directly.

!!Science!! has shown otherwise. I haven't tried one on this scale, but tests of caveins show that walls will stop if supported from above. The partular example was:

Code: [Select]

.......
.#####.
.#.#.#.
.#.#.#.
.#...#.
.......
########Which became

Code: [Select]

.......
.......
.#####.
.#.#.#.
.#.#.#.
.#...#.
########or something substantially similar. I don't know how it would behave if any part of it hit the bottom, but yeah, caveins can only get you to the penultimate layer. Some fancy work with water might let you cover the entire penultimate layer with obsidian, then drain the bottom layer (You need to isolate the bottom from the edge, then pour water into it: Water+Magma->Obsidian on SMR->Magma flow floor. I've had odd results trying to channel into the SMR layers when I'm in solid rock, and I haven't seen any experiments that involve trying to build anything under the magma sea. Obviously, I haven't been looking here hard enough.

[NecroRebel]

!!Science!! has shown otherwise. I haven't tried one on this scale, but tests of caveins show that walls will stop if supported from above. The partular example was:

Code: [Select]

.......
.#####.
.#.#.#.
.#.#.#.
.#...#.
.......
########Which became

Code: [Select]

.......
.......
.#####.
.#.#.#.
.#.#.#.
.#...#.
########or something substantially similar.

My experience has always been that that would turn into

Code: [Select]

.......
.......
.#...#.
.#.#.#.
.#.#.#.
.#####.
########...and all the !!SCIENCE!! I have heard or seen claims that to be the case. See this thread, for instance, where the fact that collapsing walls settle and don't get held open was the major obstacle to submarine creation.

Where is the experiment that you're citing?

I don't know how it would behave if any part of it hit the bottom, but yeah, caveins can only get you to the penultimate layer. Some fancy work with water might let you cover the entire penultimate layer with obsidian, then drain the bottom layer (You need to isolate the bottom from the edge, then pour water into it: Water+Magma->Obsidian on SMR->Magma flow floor. I've had odd results trying to channel into the SMR layers when I'm in solid rock, and I haven't seen any experiments that involve trying to build anything under the magma sea. Obviously, I haven't been looking here hard enough.

Channeling out normal-rock floors over semi-molten rock walls will remove the semi-molten rock wall below if and only if the wall wasn't yet visible, and, regardless, will turn the normal-rock floor into a magma flow. The magma flow is actually what eats items, cave-ins, and whatever else falls into it, but only when it is covered in a layer of magma. Your dwarves can actually walk on dry magma flow floors.

[Hans Lemurson]

Since the floor below the channeled tile is itself unrevealed, could you theoreticly send a miner on a "one way trip" down into the depths by having him continually channel-out the floor he stands on?

[NecroRebel]

Since the floor below the channeled tile is itself unrevealed, could you theoreticly send a miner on a "one way trip" down into the depths by having him continually channel-out the floor he stands on?

Wiki says yes. I've not tried it, however, and it takes a fairly convoluted method to get down, anyway.

[Hans Lemurson]

In a recent fortress, my exploratory digging missed the magma sea and hit semi-molten rock.  I will send a newly recruited miner on a grand mission of exploration...though I may end up savescumming if it turns out to be too much fun.

[decius]

!!Science!! has shown otherwise. I haven't tried one on this scale, but tests of caveins show that walls will stop if supported from above. The partular example was:

Code: [Select]

.......
.#####.
.#.#.#.
.#.#.#.
.#...#.
.......
########Which became

Code: [Select]

.......
.......
.#####.
.#.#.#.
.#.#.#.
.#...#.
########or something substantially similar.

My experience has always been that that would turn into

Code: [Select]

.......
.......
.#...#.
.#.#.#.
.#.#.#.
.#####.
########...and all the !!SCIENCE!! I have heard or seen claims that to be the case. See this thread, for instance, where the fact that collapsing walls settle and don't get held open was the major obstacle to submarine creation.

Where is the experiment that you're citing?

I don't know how it would behave if any part of it hit the bottom, but yeah, caveins can only get you to the penultimate layer. Some fancy work with water might let you cover the entire penultimate layer with obsidian, then drain the bottom layer (You need to isolate the bottom from the edge, then pour water into it: Water+Magma->Obsidian on SMR->Magma flow floor. I've had odd results trying to channel into the SMR layers when I'm in solid rock, and I haven't seen any experiments that involve trying to build anything under the magma sea. Obviously, I haven't been looking here hard enough.

Channeling out normal-rock floors over semi-molten rock walls will remove the semi-molten rock wall below if and only if the wall wasn't yet visible, and, regardless, will turn the normal-rock floor into a magma flow. The magma flow is actually what eats items, cave-ins, and whatever else falls into it, but only when it is covered in a layer of magma. Your dwarves can actually walk on dry magma flow floors.

Tested the cavein thought. I was wrong: each column does indeed fall separately. At least four dwarfs perished in the testing of this, two from channeling the floor under them, one from channeling the last tile, and one who trapped himself inside the test chamber. Several more probably died since I ignored a siege and put everybody who wasn't making a pick into mining.