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[JarinArenos]

Okay, I've seen it mentioned a number of times that ramps work better than, say, a 3x3 shaft of up/down stairs when it comes to pathing issues. And indeed, most people talking about large z-level pathways mention spiral rampways. So here's my question(s)

1. What layout works best for a primary central spiral, with the assumption that most of the fort's vertical traffic will use this?

I've used:

Code: [Select]

L1       L2       L3       L4
....^    ^^^^      vvvv    v....
....^    ....v    ^....    v....
....^    ....v    ^....    v....
....^    ....v    ^....    v....
vvvv     ....v    ^....     ^^^^
If that makes sense, or a 3x3 variant (instead of 4x4), but either way, it significantly increases vertical travel distance. Instead of 50 z-levels being 50 steps, it's now more than double that. Is there a more efficient way to do this? Am I missing something critical?

2. How much of a pathing slowdown are up/down staircases? I mean, I understand the basic issue being 3d pathing instead of 2d, but is it really that bad if the shaft is only 2x2 or 3x3?

[sir_laser]

Maybe I'm just not experienced, but I've never encountered an issue in which a 3x3 staircase was not enough, especially if you have certain dedicated stairwells (like a direct stair to your forge from the stockpiles or meeting room, blocked off on every other z-level but these two).

Ramps move both a vertical and horizontal distance, while stairs only move a vertical distance, maybe that's what your problem is.

[JarinArenos]

Maybe I'm just not experienced, but I've never encountered an issue in which a 3x3 staircase was not enough, especially if you have certain dedicated stairwells (like a direct stair to your forge from the stockpiles or meeting room, blocked off on every other z-level but these two).

Ramps move both a vertical and horizontal distance, while stairs only move a vertical distance, maybe that's what your problem is.

Think you might have overlooked the question here. By all intents and purposes, a 3x3 staircase should be the optimum. However, there's supposedly pathing issues with them that slow down forts; especially later game, when you're fighting against FPS more than goblins and FBs.

[shlorf]

The singular ramp design is probably the most fps efficient, I would suggest making it 3 or even only 2 tiles wide (works fine for me).
The following more symmetrically pleasing design is what most people seem to use tho:

Code: [Select]

__V__
__V__
^^W^^
__V__
__V__
rotate 90° on next z-level
It has the advantage of looping on itself after 2 levels instead of 4 and you can connect in all directions easier, but it opens up a lot more paths to calculate.
There was a thread about this before, it had exact distances.
I just realized this is missing some walls, don't build it like this but I gotta go to bed now and that design is also on the wiki iirc.

[tolkafox]

FYI I don't use centralized stairways except for the first five Z levels, then I branch stairways off every which way and what and control them by restricting paths to dead ends. Not sure if that will give you any ideas or not :/ Also, dwarves move horizontal and vertical on ramps in the same time it takes them to move one space.

If I remember correctly, it was more optimum like so:

f1       f2     f3   f4
. . ^   . . .      . . .    ^^.
. . ^   . . .     ^ . .    . . .
. . .    . ^^    ^ . .    . . .
Or something like that, and then just alternate. It either takes the same time as stairs or is faster, one or the other :/

Edit: Sorry I fail as an artist. It was spiral not straight up O.o

[JarinArenos]

There was a thread about this before, it had exact distances.

I tried looking for such, but search has failed me.

[ext0l]

Ramps may or may not increase FPS. There is little evidence that suggests one is better than the other.

Also, doing a search for 'spiral ramp' turns out many more threads. Many.

[JarinArenos]

So it does. Much appreciated.

Alright, so that looks like it's not going to be much of an issue either way. Not enough to really judge pathfinding comparisons, anyway.

[tolkafox]

Ramps may or may not increase FPS. There is little evidence that suggests one is better than the other.

Also, doing a search for 'spiral ramp' turns out many more threads. Many.

This looks like it is in dire need of !!SCIENCE!!

If it helps, I've already looked through 1-20 of spiral ramps search and only found these:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=35931.msg1843196#msg1843196
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=74683.msg1865179#msg1865179
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=71990.msg1761479#msg1761479
Only the first one looks helpful though.

Also, do one way ramps still work?

[mrbaggins]

What we need is a one way door or the ability to designate floors or roads as one way tiles brush all hallways can be one tile wide. You'd just need two (wall separation is optional)

[shlorf]

Yeah if the pathing designation had a feature for oneway passages you could heavily optimize and cut down the calculations. It would be a bitch to set up for big forts tho.

[brucemo]

I heard that stairs were death to framerate, and ramps make your forts run fast as lightning, so I made a fort that was all ramps and I couldn't tell the difference.

Having said that, I like ramps.  There are lots of sane ramp layouts.  Here's one:

Code: [Select]

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
W+++++++++++W+++++++++++W W = Wall
W+++++++++++W+++++++++++W + = Floor
W+++++++++++W+++++++++++W % = Door
W+++++++++++W+++++++++++W ^ = Up ramp
W+++++++++++W+++++++++++W v = Down ramp
W+++++++++++%+++++++++++W # = Floor, or grate for waterfall
W+++++++++++%+++++++++++W
W+++++++++++W+++++++++++W Other Z levels are this rotated 90, 180, or 270 degrees
W++++++++W%%WW++++++++++W
W++++++++%++vW++++++++++W
W++++++++%++vW++++++++++W
WWWWWW%%WW^^#WWWW%%WWWWWW
W++++++++WWWWW++++++++++W
W+++++++++++W+++++++++++W
W+++++++++++W+++++++++++W
W+++++++++++W+++++++++++W
W+++++++++++%+++++++++++W
W+++++++++++%+++++++++++W
W+++++++++++W+++++++++++W
W+++++++++++W+++++++++++W
W+++++++++++W+++++++++++W
W+++++++++++W+++++++++++W
W+++++++++++W+++++++++++W
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW


[Sutremaine]

One-way ramps don't work any more because a ramp built with a floor above it now registers correctly when the floor is removed.

Here's the design I'm using at the moment:

Code: [Select]

       ######
       #^+++###
       #^+++++##
       #^++++++#
       #^++++++##
       #^+++++++#
       #^+++++++#
########++++++++#
#vvvvvv+++vvvvvv#
#++++++++########
#+++++++^#
#+++++++^#
##++++++^#
 #++++++^#
 ##+++++^#
  ###+++^#
    ######

Rotate 90 degrees for the next level.


Travel time is presumably 2x the number of levels, as dwarves appear for two tiles per level. If the ramps were to be extended towards the centre, then a single dwarf moving up and down would appear on one tile per level, same as a vertical staircase. Adding other dwarves complicates things somewhat, as one will always have to move away from the quickest path in order to avoid other dwarves, but while this will definitely affect travel time I have no idea how the game uses resources when doing the 'move out the way' repathing. There's a definite slowdown when multiple dwarves try to path through the same area (on the same z-level) even if they can move freely once they actually get to the narrow point, but I don't know if stairs and ramps have different effects.