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Author Topic: Military Equipment, a tale from Ikuddastot  (Read 1507 times)

zenfiero

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Military Equipment, a tale from Ikuddastot
« on: November 22, 2010, 08:02:31 am »

A search turned up similar issues, but older, and with no resolutions or resolutions which did not work in my case. Here is my tale.

I have three squads, two of them stuffed full of axedwarves I am quite proud of and one set of two marksdwarves for flavor. They all train for glory and skill in their wonderfully appointed and massive barracks complex near the entrance to the glorious city of Ikuddastot. Adjacent to their main room are storage departments where all of the city's arms and armor are stored. Specifically here, we are looking at the armor storage.

All was going quite well for the longest time. For a couple of years by my reckoning the armor storage had blossomed into one smaller, closer pile and a supporting rear pile to hold more shtuff. The smaller pile fed from the larger. Fine. ..Until recently. Don't ask me exactly when, and certainly not why, but several of my otherwise honorable and sane wardwarves decided to take it into their minds that they much preferred running back and forth across the armory to constantly 'pickup equipment'.

From what I can tell, they fiddle with some mail\breastplate or combination thereof and then walk away a few steps. They either then return immediately to do the same again or, because they've dropped the equipment onto the pile rather than into a bin, come back after a helpful' peasant has come along to tidy up and stuffed the equipment back into a bin. I surmise that this causes existential dread in the wardwarf who, attached mind body and soul to all armor he has ever witness and no longer able to see it, fears he may vanish from the world.

Frustrating\amusing theories aside, I developed a headache. It was late and I wanted sleep without nightmares of running dwarves, so I tried various things to stem the flow of madness from the dwarves into my mind:
-Assign other orders, both through schedule and\or through the squad menu (orders unheeded, too busy fondling equipment);
-Forbid the entire disastrous pile (dwarves frozen in place, with either 'pickup equipment' or 'no job' until the equipment was reclaimed);
-Remove the stockpiles entirely (same effect as forbidding; without a stockpile, dwarves can't see the armor at all?);
-Remove the use of bins from the pile (same effect as forbidding; for some reason dwarves in this fortress will never under any circumstances store anything in any stockpile without a bin if it can be stored in a bin. Don't know if this is related somehow, other than I think that the dwarf who is performing the 'pickup equipment' is I don't think so much putting the equipment onto the pile under him as simply dropping it where he stands when he's done.)
-Alter the uniforms (no change);
-This morning, utterly disband all squads, wait a while, create new ones manually (to my horror, no change);

Now, this city I am extremely proud of. I deliberately embarked into a frightfully haunted forest, found that the trees do NOT regenerate, lost many a brave dwarf to skeletal beings and a Collosus, have survived ambuses and near-famine.. Despite all this, the dwarves flourish, and I have grown attached to their simple little lives. But at this point I begin to contemplate.. surrender. :\

I try one last hope. I remove the secondary pile and replace it with a seperate pile each for each segment of armor, leaving the original mix-all pile. The dwarves do a lot of fiddling around while I bite my nails, but.. it settles. .. NO! NO DON'T GO BACK TO THE PILE! NOOOOOO! The issue seemed to be isolated to the pile with the body armor, so I forbid that pile in a fit of pique, making sure none of the dwarves were seeking their dread equipment at the time.

...It worked. BY ABOD THEY ARE TRAINING! I'm afraid to do anything else. I've looked through the other bins in the other piles and can see that, despite my orders, they're mixed. There's body armor in the shield bins and greaves in the helm bins. My next experiment will be to dump all the armor out of those bins and see what happens. Then I will unforbid the body armor pile and do the same, and see what happens then. If it breaks again, I will attempt creating a uniform which does not incorporate body protection. All the while I shall pray that an ambush does not strike, as I have been lucky this far...
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celem

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Re: Military Equipment, a tale from Ikuddastot
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2010, 09:03:26 am »

This comes up quite a bit it seems.  You did say you'd done a search but just to check:

Have you got both mail shirts and breastplates assigned in your uniform?  Using the entry 'metal armour' may cause this behaviour.

Also check that they have enough room to put everything on, if they have lots of stuff like robes/dresses then they wont be able to wear both.

Generally my uniforms are cloak, breastplate, mail on the upper body.  i used to use 'metal armour' but encountered this breastplate/mail shirt switching
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zenfiero

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Re: Military Equipment, a tale from Ikuddastot
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2010, 09:14:23 am »

Update:
1) Reorganize non-body armor stockpiles: Check. Doom: Negative.
2) Reorder body-based armor stockpile: Check. Doom: OH GODS WHY!?!

So it seems it might even be an issue with a few specific armor peices. Alternately, I've checked and it could be a stacking issue, where the dwarves in question are wearing too many body items (crappy fabric things which of course I cannot forbid or dump [please change this, oh god-devs of DF! D:]). So..

3) Remove Mail from the uniforms, reapply uniforms: Check. Doom: ..Averted!

Not an issue with individual pieces, then, but a general problem with armor stacking and a silly preference for tattered pig tail robes over life-saving, well-crafted armor. An avoidable issue, though it's unfortunately that my dwarves must go with sub-par armor coverage.

Update update:
Celem, thank you very much for posting! Yes, I've just come to the same conclusion through some rigorous testing. I haven't been using 'metal armor', but rather 'metal mail' and 'metal breastplate'. The issue is indeed that many of the wardwarves have a combination of robe+toga, which takes up two of the three upper body slots. The ones with robe/dress + coat seem to have less an issue..maybe. Nevertheless, I can't seem to change anything about the dwarves' clothing by any means. This has also frustrated my poor, extremely skilled clothier and caused a rather large pile of otherwise fine clothing to pile up and become dusty.

Are you aware of any means to remedy this confounding clothing conundrum and get the dwarves to strip?
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celem

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Re: Military Equipment, a tale from Ikuddastot
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2010, 09:19:11 am »

when designating a uniform (the page where you add pieces and pick their materials) there is an option to toggle between wearing it over clothes or having it replace clothes.  Im gonna hazzard a guess and say 'r'
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zenfiero

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Re: Military Equipment, a tale from Ikuddastot
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2010, 01:08:38 pm »

Oh, wow! Thanks! I'd missed that entirely! :D

Excellent. They've dropped all their clothing, but altogether it's better this way. More armor means more protection.. now I can really stack it on, too, because there'll be no clothing conflicts at all. Mind, I'll bet all that iron and steel chafes a bit.. maybe I can put in a shirt, some pants and a pair of socks as part of the uniform.
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celem

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Re: Military Equipment, a tale from Ikuddastot
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2010, 01:33:23 pm »

you can layer leather with some sections.  its actually a good idea theoretically since leather under ought to provide more damage from blunt attacks.

For reference my full uniform is

leather mittens, metal gauntlets
leather cap, metal helm, leather hood
mail, breastplate, cloak
greaves
high boots

i cant remember quite right now but i think you can probably get socks under the boots, just you cant make em from leather so it would be cloth, likewise you can add legwear under the greaves as long as its not [shaped]
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Acperience

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Re: Military Equipment, a tale from Ikuddastot
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2010, 04:03:41 pm »

you can layer leather with some sections.  its actually a good idea theoretically since leather under ought to provide more damage from blunt attacks.

For reference my full uniform is

leather mittens, metal gauntlets
leather cap, metal helm, leather hood
mail, breastplate, cloak
greaves
high boots

i cant remember quite right now but i think you can probably get socks under the boots, just you cant make em from leather so it would be cloth, likewise you can add legwear under the greaves as long as its not [shaped]

no force field robes?
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Fishbulb

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Re: Military Equipment, a tale from Ikuddastot
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2010, 09:50:22 pm »

I'm going to resurrect up this old thread in order to share a little bit. Having spent my evening wrestling with uniforms, I thought I'd share what I've learned. Hopefully at least some of it is correct. A little bit.

First of all, the wiki's page on armor is quite helpful … once you acquire the patience to actually read the thing. The way the game handles worn items is apparently hellishly complex. The first and biggest gotcha that's hidden in there is this: Dwarves cannot wear chain leggings and greaves together. I'm fairly sure this is a change from 40d, or maybe I'm just an idiot.

Point the second: Apparently dwarves will not pick up equipment that isn't in a stockpile. Because I did some shuffling of storage, I ended up with some bins full of steel caps that were just sitting around, not inside a stockpile. None of my dwarves would equip the caps. It wasn't until I made a stockpile for them, and they were moved to that stockpile, that the dwarves noticed that they were available.

Point the third: While in principle you can layer armor pretty elaborately, in practice it seems not to work out perfectly every time. For instance, I've told all my dwarves in my hero squads to wear the following, with the "replace clothing" option turned on:

Leather shirt
Steel mail shirt
Steel breastplate
Leather cloak

Steel cap
Steel helm
Leather hood

Silk loincloth
Leather trousers
Steel greaves

Leather gloves
Steel gauntlets
Silk mittens

Silk socks
Leather shoes
Steel high boots

All of this works … in principle. Some of my dwarves do, in fact, find and put on all these things, in the right order. But some seem to get confused. I have quite a few dwarves who are wearing one sock, or both socks but only one boot, or a boot on one foot and a shoe on the other … whatever.

I haven't figured out yet if there's any rhyme or reason to it. I thought at first it might have to do with sheer bulk; maybe my smaller dwarves aren't capable of putting on all of that at once? Then I got the feeling it might boil down to preferences; maybe some of my dwarves just hate silk.

I'm going to continue to fiddle with it, because I'm so OCD it hurts.
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