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[Neonivek]

Rifts isn't complex it just requires so much freeken back checking that it makes character creation a chore.

Also I have seen suppliments that were somewhat wastes of cash. Mutants and Masterminds 2nd edition's power book was one of them. It didn't add much that wasn't already there. It was only for DMs and Players, and Indeed I've seen them, who cannot expand on already presented material.

Suffice it to say Gaelic that some DMs need that fluff because they won't go an inch further otherwise.

[BishopX]

The funny thing I've always found with complex RPGs is that they always give you the disclaimer at the beginning of the book that goes something like this:  "The rules in this book are just a guideline, we encourage you to make the game your own and remove or change them whenever you want to".

I would very much like some names. I know RIFTS and FATAL could fall into that category, but the former isn't very good (or so I've heard) and the latter is so mindfarking... I don't even know... that it ceases to be funny.

Check out Hackmaster. It's a lot of fun, especially when the group knows what it's doing.

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

I am not sure if "Complex" is the best way to describe a Pen and Paper RPG.

I've heard of games that take hours, even if you memorised the system, to make a character and I am not sure those are really all that great.

Kinda wish there were more places to play then OpenRPG... Then maybe I could find the game right for me.

What do you mean?  Like http://www.enworld.org/, http://www.online-roleplaying.com/, or http://www.myth-weavers.com/?

Makes me think, "So why the F did I buy this book in the first place??!!"

So you wouldn't have to make an entirely new rule system.

I'm not talking about making a new rule system, I'm talking about walking into my local gaming store, reading the chapter on attribute resolution, and walking out.  Or even better, just peruse a game's forums or wiki and learn the attribute resolution system there.  I've saved myself at least $30.

Most RPGs, at their heart and core, boil down to how they process encounter resolution.  Everything else is pure fluff and optional if you think about it.  The rules for advanced combat, experience gain, skills, talents/feats, magic, and on and on could simply be exchanged for a xDx + related attribute + modifiers and GM discretion.  When it comes right down to it, it's so much easier to forgo all the extra grind-my-game-to-a-halt rules and just roll a xDx + related attribute + modifiers, set some house rules, throw in my own setting, and profit.

I won't argue that some of these systems are a fun read with beautiful art and nice flavor text.  But I find that the investment on return for heavy crunch games is simply not worth it for the fun factor.  Reading a cool sounding system is much different than playing one.

So what you're saying is that you personally don't enjoy playing with complex rules systems and therefore they are bad?