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Author Topic: Some design help for a newb, please?  (Read 1274 times)

EllOhEll

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Some design help for a newb, please?
« on: September 05, 2010, 01:33:56 pm »

I'm just now getting the hang of most of the features of Dwarf Fortress now (except for that darned military >:() and I was just wondering if you all, in your generosity, could give me some tips on fortress design, such as more efficient bedroom layouts, workshop placement, or which area should go on which z-level? Thanks in advance.  :D
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JAFANZ

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Re: Some design help for a newb, please?
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2010, 01:50:49 pm »

I recommend checking the Wiki for bedroom design & such.

For what to place on each z-level, I think the only real information is on Noise (i.e. waking sleeping dorfs), but I don't have that page bookmarked to link for you.
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forsaken1111

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Re: Some design help for a newb, please?
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2010, 01:52:59 pm »

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Proteus

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Re: Some design help for a newb, please?
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2010, 02:05:23 pm »

The design strategies are endless, so, if you ask 11 people of us this question, you will get at least 15 different answers :D

One important thing to remember is, that dwarves, if they produce something, they will use the nearest raw material, noit the material for which you need the shortest walking distance...
lets say for example, that a stonecrafter in his workshop has to decide between
a stone, 1 z-level below him, for which he will have to go 10 steps to the next stairs, then 10 steps to ste stone and the whole way back, i.e. 40 steps in total
and another stone, only 3 tiles away on the same z-level as himself, for which he only need to walk 6 steps...
as the first mentioned stone is the nearest stone to him, he will walk to this one, instead of using the 2nd one, which would be much more efficient.

This however is something that reflects my workshop design...
Usually I have my workshops in 4 workshop rooms with a size of 11*11 (11 = distance you cover when you use Shift+Direction key)
and in the z-level directly below them I have storage space for the raw materials needed by them and with a stairwell in the middle of the room, that connects both z-levels.
Often I also have a sorage room for the finished products in the z-level directly above them.

The Design for my food production is similar...
[z-level]:[name]
0: Main Dining Hall
1: Booze Storage
2: Food Storage
3: Kitchen, Fishery Storage
4: Kitchen Storage, Butchers Workshop, Fishery
5: Still, Farmers Workshop
6: Plant Storages for Still and Farmers Workshop

All workshops and their storage areas usually directly next to each other, or, if on different z-levels directly on top of each other and with stairs in the middle of their rooms.
Sometimes with slight alterations, but it is more or less the basic design I use...
and usually for almost all rooms I use the size 11*11 (or multiples of it... my main dining hall as well as its booze and food storage for example has a size of 3*3*11*11 (+2*2*(3*11+2)) 
my main building block for housing areas is of the same size and uses this area for 32 spacious homes for my dwarves
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brucemo

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Re: Some design help for a newb, please?
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2010, 02:29:20 pm »

It's almost entirely a matter of personal preference since it's hard to tell if one design is better than another and it's not always clear that it matters.

You'll start with seven dwarves, and you'll have about 20 after a year, then probably something dumb will happen and you'll abandon.

A bedroom should have at very least a bed in it, so that's one square.  If you put a cabinet (rock is cheapest) and a chest (rock coffer is cheapest to make) in the room they'll put stuff in these so that is probably a good idea.  They do not need a path to the chest or cabinet, meaning they'll walk across the chest and cabinet to get to the bed if you make a 1x3 room.  Having a door across the entrance is not essential but it makes it easier to define the room.

You do not need to give them a lot of space.

Later on, when you get pickly nobles (sheriff, mayor, etc.), you have to make them bigger to fit more stuff.  If you make an engraver pretty early on (doesn't need to be in the first seven, but probably should start in the first year or so), and set him up to engrave constantly and not do any other jobs, you can have him to legendary pretty quickly, and engrave the hell out of noble rooms so you can easily get by with 3 x 5 or even smaller.  Another thing that helps with those is to put them in places with better materials, such as gold, gems, iron ore, etc., for walls and floors.

But that's getting ahead.  The initial batch of dwarves are not picky.
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Proteus

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Re: Some design help for a newb, please?
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2010, 02:57:37 pm »

Yes, my initial 7 for the first 1-2 years only get a bed in a corridor...
thanks to the fine meals my cook makes,
this will keep them satisfied for a long time
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Leonidas

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Re: Some design help for a newb, please?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2010, 03:05:25 am »

My advice is not to focus too much on design, because that puts you in a static frame of mind.  Inefficiency in DF usually comes from poor hauling management rather than poor design.  Most beginners divide their hauling in a dozen different directions and then wonder why nothing happens.  (At least, that's what I did.) 

Better to keep most of your hauling focused on a single task at a time.  First they're collecting wood, then they're dumping stone, then they're installing furniture, then they're moving food around through the fields, mill, thresher, and kitchen.  At any given moment you should know exactly where the bulk of your hauling is going, and you should be prepared to shut off that hauling stream and redirect it to some new project or emergency.

Workshops are much less important than stockpiles, because stockpiles consume so much hauling.  Every empty square in a stockpile is a potential demand on your hauling supply.  So when you see an empty stockpile square, make sure that either 1) the stockpile isn’t consuming any hauling because all of those items are either forbidden or in a stockpile, and you aren’t producing any more right now, or 2) you definitely want part of your hauling stream to be focused on that stockpile right now.  Slash unwanted stockpiles mercilessly, or they’ll eat you alive.

The key to DF efficiency is to stay fluid by manipulating your stockpiles to control your hauling stream.  Example: Suppose that you need a lot of doors and cabinets right now.  So put a stone stockpile by your mason’s shop.  That way you’ve got your hauling stream aimed at speeding up furniture production. 

A few minutes later, with the stockpile only half full, you realize that a recent battle has left various chunky goblin bits in your main hall, and they’ll soon start to stink.  Plus, maybe you want to collect their clothes to sell to the next caravan, and it looks like your mason has plenty of stone on hand for now.  So you delete that stone stockpile to free up your hauling supply.  Your number of idle workers shoots up to double digits.  Then you flag all the goblin parts and clothes to be dumped.  (You should put the bottom of your dump near your depot, for easy retrieval when the traders arrive.)  Your haulers drop the stones they’re carrying and head off to the scene of the carnage.

Then you notice that crops are withering in your fields.  And you really want those crops.  So you decide to split your hauling stream in two.  You decide to un-dump the goblin clothes for now, so that the dump command only applies to the actual goblin body parts that are likely to stink.  That should free up part of your hauling force to go harvest the crops.

So the question isn’t where you put your workshops.  The key question is: What’s eating up your hauling?  The usual answer is stockpiles, though careless dumping commands will also do it.

There’s nothing magic about design.  Just build the production chains.  Build a stockpile for pig tail seeds, and next to that a plot for growing pig tails.  Next to that a stockpile for pig tails.  Next to that a farmer’s workshop.  Next to that a stockpile for thread.  Next to that a loom.  Next to that a cloth stockpile.  Next to that a clothier’s workshop.  Next to that a workshop for cloth finished goods.  Your farming chain starts with a seed stockpile and ends up in the dining room.

Stockpiles for finished goods should always be right next to the workshop that produces those goods.  Some portion of your hauling will always go towards keeping active workshops from getting cluttered.  It’s like a tax on your hauling, an unavoidable 15-25% that’s going to disappear no matter what.  Good design just keeps that tax rate relatively low.

But no amount of good design will save you from the classic newbie mistakes of giant dump orders and giant stockpiles for raw materials, created and then forgotten.  If your fortress isn’t productive enough, it’s probably because you’re always short on hauling.  And if you’re short on hauling, it’s probably because you created some hauling-consuming orders and forgot about them.  So delete all your dump orders, and erase all your stockpiles.  Then create only the stockpiles and dump orders that you’re sure you really want right now, and your fortress will have no more efficiency problems.
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Shagomir

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Re: Some design help for a newb, please?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2010, 03:31:36 am »

Leonidas has a good system. I use some variation on this with quantum stockpiles, so maybe I am a cheater.

To make a quantum stockpile, you designate a zone for dumping, then use the d-b-d menu to designate the items you want in the pile for dumping. The haulers will go to work moving all the designated items to that pile. You then remove the zone and use the d-b menu to claim the items once everything has been dumped. For example, you can create a pile of an arbitrary number of stone one space from the mason shop using this technique.

You can do this with anything, as long as you are careful with the dumping zones, and make sure to claim the things you want to use. This is the most efficient stockpile design for materials since every item can be only one square away, but some people find it too exploity, and it involves a little more micromanagment.

I think the Wiki probably explains it better if my explanation confused you.
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Leonidas

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Re: Some design help for a newb, please?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2010, 10:53:17 am »

I do that sort of dumping all the time, Shagomir.  It just takes more work than stockpiles, because you have to manage 1) the dump orders on the objects 2) the location of your dump zone, and 3) the forbid status of the objects after they're dumped.  So creative dumping certainly works best if you do everything correctly, but the chance of an error is much higher.

Come to think of it, I should probably use dumps more for items that really suck up bins and barrels, like stone blocks, stone crafts, and prepared meals.  Will a single food stockpile square prevent a thousand prepared meals from spoiling?
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Shagomir

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Re: Some design help for a newb, please?
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2010, 03:55:20 pm »

I do that sort of dumping all the time, Shagomir.  It just takes more work than stockpiles, because you have to manage 1) the dump orders on the objects 2) the location of your dump zone, and 3) the forbid status of the objects after they're dumped.  So creative dumping certainly works best if you do everything correctly, but the chance of an error is much higher.

Come to think of it, I should probably use dumps more for items that really suck up bins and barrels, like stone blocks, stone crafts, and prepared meals.  Will a single food stockpile square prevent a thousand prepared meals from spoiling?

If you designate it as a food stockpile, it might. I never quantum stockpile things that go in bins, and I'm used to having thousands of squares of furniture storage. I usually only use this trick for building materials.
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ledgekindred

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Re: Some design help for a newb, please?
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2010, 04:37:43 pm »

The design strategies are endless, so, if you ask 11 people of us this question, you will get at least 15 different answers :D

10 of which will be "keep digging down until you find a magma sea.  Look for some blue metal with a tunnel down the middle of it through the magma.  Dig through that and set up your fort on the other side."   :D

For that matter, asking one person will get you at least 15 different answers.  The only thing consistent between any of my forts has been the cooking/unprepared food storage and prepared food&drinks and dining area are close to each other, respectively.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 04:39:42 pm by ledgekindred »
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I don't understand, though that is about right with anything DF related.
I just hope he dies the same death that all dwarfs deserve: liver disease.
The legend of Reg: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=65866.0
Atir Stigildegel, Legless Hero of Diamondrelic: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=83136.0