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Author Topic: Cannon  (Read 3176 times)

Lord Shonus

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Re: Cannon
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2010, 03:17:39 pm »

I know that the engravings of the early pots-de-fer showed them as being high-angled peices in contrast to the low-angle bombards and culverins.
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On Giant In the Playground and Something Awful I am Gnoman.
Man, ninja'd by a potentially inebriated Lord Shonus. I was gonna say to burn it.

Urist McCheeseMaker

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Re: Cannon
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2010, 10:23:37 am »

fuses and explosive charges would be fun. using cannons normally has few uses, other than aiming them over a wall.. but here's some fun thoughts:

upright spike trap that's triggered by an explosive underneath (as a separate tile, a z-level below). penetrates better than a mechanism-operated one, but it needs to be manually reloaded. ánd cleaned, sometimes, and you need to get to different squares to do either.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

blast-mining. 'nuff said. HERE COMES THE MAGMAAAA!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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ZeroGravitas

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Re: Cannon
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2010, 01:13:17 pm »

I really wish threads like this just got auto-locked or deleted so that people don't hash out the same lame arguments every week, citing the same wikipedia pages, and just generally wasting electrons.
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FreakyCheeseMan

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Re: Cannon
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2010, 01:36:33 pm »

fuses and explosive charges would be fun. using cannons normally has few uses, other than aiming them over a wall.. but here's some fun thoughts:

upright spike trap that's triggered by an explosive underneath (as a separate tile, a z-level below). penetrates better than a mechanism-operated one, but it needs to be manually reloaded. ánd cleaned, sometimes, and you need to get to different squares to do either.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

blast-mining. 'nuff said. HERE COMES THE MAGMAAAA!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I lean towards making the first one standard for all traps- have them be mechanism-activated and fire into an adjacent square, rather than just be magic kill/trapping boxes. Stone fall traps would be easy to build but only fire downwards, wpears might be able to stab across 2 squares, crossbows would shoot down a hallway, letting you do all kinds of fun Indiana-Jonesie stuff.

As for the second... no offense, but what would be the point? You could use such a system to breach magma pipes and HFS, but beyond that, it's weaker in every way than normal mining. Unless we start saying that there are some stones dwarves can't get through without explosives...
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What do you really need to turn Elves into Dwarves? Mutation could make them grow a beard; insanity effects could make them evil-minded, aggressive, tree-hating cave dwellers, and instant, full necrosis of their lower legs could make them short.

Starver

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Re: Cannon
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2010, 05:30:54 am »

[...]blast-mining.[...]
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[...] no offense, but what would be the point? You could use such a system to breach magma pipes and HFS, but beyond that, it's weaker in every way than normal mining. Unless we start saying that there are some stones dwarves can't get through without explosives...
One point would be to arrange for something similar to a remotely removable support, but based upon natural rock.  Or ditto as if for floodgate opening, but in a situation where getting the floodgate into position would be impossible (i.e. in the wall of a magma pipe or ocean).  Also cutting the last channel around the aquifer-buster bedrock mass without needing a dwarf to risk life and limb and dust, or setting up a sacrificial lever-operated built support.

But if it were to be implemented, it would probably have to be based upon fuses, rather than mechanics (not that there couldn't be a lever-to-fuse interface, perhaps, but unless you implement percussion caps (needs realgar).  Either (configurable?) fuse-lengths lit on the object and retired from (similar to a Pull Lever, but at the device itself) or set up as per a lever-mechanism at a distance[1] so fully equivalent to the other type of action.

There are also (at least) three differerent ways you could install explosives.  As per any constructed item is at the moment (on a tile, and for the purposes of force applied considered 'next to' any walls that are adjacent that tile, maybe or maybe not including diagonals), as a petard (placed upon a wall, a development parallel to being able to put wall-hangings on specific walls/tile boundaries, also carved reliefs and the like) or by drilling holes into walls, thus planting the charge within an otherwise unmined square (with possibly minor leaking consequences to doing so on aquifer-dampened walls?).

Each way allows different effects, but also has different pre-requisites from the engine.

[1] Unless and until levers and mechanisms are connected with 'physical' chains of connectivity, rather than a psychic link, we shouldn't consider looking at a 'chain' of fuse-wire laid out in the tunnels, but as and when we do, it should be susceptible to magma or sabotage.  Which is not to say that a deliberately laid fuse could not actually be used to detect magma (or, in a pinch, sabotage) and do something to counter (or react to) the appropriate intrusion.  But that's far beyond speculation. :)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

While I don't agree that this thread should be locked (and, indeed, am happy enough to waffle away about the discussion) I do agree that it's a recurring subject, and am not even sure if I'd fully welcome explosives in-game.  But I might as well give my vision of the implementation.  Balancing is the key and, apart from material costs (e.g. saltpeter, charcoal, one or other of the sulpherous stones/some sort of 'sulphur flower'[2] that grows near magma) needed to create the explosives, it would be heavily reliant upon skills to safely install.  Or, indeed, produce in the "Fireworks Workshop".  With heavily non-zero chance of accidents at all points along the process.

[2] In part a pun, in part a very rough suggestion for an actual new plant (with or without any use), in keeping with the fantasy feel.  Perhaps the plant equivalent to Fire Snakes, when it comes to biomes.
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Psieye

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Re: Cannon
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2010, 05:39:43 am »

Wasn't gunpowder part of a DF talk once? Toady mentioned it wouldn't be part of vanilla DF but he wanted to make it easy to mod it in.
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Congrats, Psieye. This is the first time I've seen a derailed thread get put back on the rails.

Tiphareth

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Re: Cannon
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2010, 05:56:17 am »

I think the shaped charge, should also include copper or bronze to avoid flinging wood shrapnel down the corridor your dwarf is running in. That, is front made out of wood. Sides made out of wood or sturdier material (if you want a conical blast, not sure how real charges work) and the back end of it made out of solid material with a "this side against the operator" message inscribed on it.
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Urist McCheeseMaker

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Re: Cannon
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2010, 07:09:00 am »

i know of one kind of shaped charge, the linear kind: it's made of two v-shapes pieces of metal with an explosive material in the middle, like this: <<
in this example, the charge would be directed to the right. the explosive force makes the right piece of metal collapse into a single sheet, and blast forward like a knife. sort of like this: <    =

i suppose a cone-shaped charge would be the same, except the knife bit collapses upon itself in two dimensions. of course, that's not so much a cone, but more like a single line. wouldn't know. and starver, you said exactly what i meant, thanks for that. and hey, don't forget that the blast could also injure any nearby baddies. or goodies, if you're that cruel to your dwarves. add a pool, some animals and one of these bombs and soon you'll have a nice creamy batch of... "mystery meat". all that's left is the age-old question: buckets or barrels? :)
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freeaxle

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Re: Cannon
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2010, 12:37:04 pm »

Aside from the departure from the 'feel' of the game, the introduction of cannon would require the ability to cast metal rather than forge it. Early cannons were made from cast iron and bronze. That said, they often required some assembly as two halves of the barrel were cast and had to be bound with loops of metal, which were often the point of (catastrophic) failure when the cannons shot. So yeah, cannons need casting.
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Rowanas

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Re: Cannon
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2010, 12:41:45 pm »

As long as Toady
makes it easy to mod in
I will be happy
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.
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