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Author Topic: Hex Tiles  (Read 6408 times)

MrWiggles

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Re: Hex Tiles
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2010, 12:05:17 am »

No-one is arguing about the mathematics. The issue is that G-Flex believes having a slightly irregular packing is gamebreaking, I believe it really doesn't matter. We can already fit an infinite number of dragons in a one tile cage, dealing with stacked hexagons is not going to require any more suspension of disbelief than the game already does.

Yes, well, I believe multi-tile creatures are at least considered to be added at some time. Irregular packing of hexagonal prisms is not going to go away, ever.

I'd much rather see this game developed further using squares (or cubes) than time and effort used to convert it to something that, at least to me, seems inferior. How do you make straight-walled passages with hex? Rectangular rooms? What about tables? Would they be hexagonal, or square with lots of spacing? How would it look in visualizers?

Tables just take up one tile so the same would be my guess.  How they would like like in the visualizer would be up to the interupater used by the visualizer.

As for straight vertical lines, yea, they would wiggle to and fro, Though hex tiles would allow for rounder shapes to be more elegantly defined.

I also dont see why hex tiles would make multitiled creatures harder to do.
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G-Flex

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Re: Hex Tiles
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2010, 09:08:03 pm »

Th
The major thing hexes have going over squares has to be the more sensible path cost it provides.  A hex can have a cost of 1 for each direction, while a square-based system ought to have something closer to 2 per major direction, and 3 per diagonal to be 'fair'.  (I use 2 and 3 because they are are a good approximation of the difference between 1 and sqrt(2), and integer math tends to be faster than floating point.)

For what it's worth, Toady does (at least in some cases) consider the sqrt(2) case for diagonals. And yeah, that problem would exist with hexagonal prisms anyway, since you have cells bordering on edges and points as well as faces... or at least on edges, anyway.


Hexagonal prisms would make multitile creatures a bit weirder in that the axes simply aren't treated the same. Imagine a multitile creature (tall and wide and long) in a hexagonal prism system getting knocked over; there's no particularly good way to represent it. With cubes, you can rotate along the axes just fine and nothing at all has to change.



Quite frankly, I think squares/cubes simply look better for this sort of game, because it involves lots of manmade construction. In games like these, squares are usually better, since buildings and roads and the like tend to be very, very rectangular. Note that most hex tile games either take places largely in natural settings where this doesn't matter (like war games), or in places where the manmade stuff is so large in scale that you can fudge the edges without any particularly odd consequences (rarer, but an example is Fallout).


Just a major factor, a square touches 9 things, a hexagon only reaches 6.

The problem here is that you have to define "touching". A square is adjacent to four other squares, and touches four others at vertices. A hexagon is adjacent to six other hexagons, all equally. So for a few reasons, hexagons wind up being easier to work with sometimes.

Of course, we're not dealing strictly with hexagons and squares here, hence my thinking that hexagonal anything isn't a great idea.
It exists "per layer", but at the cost of making the world's representation more irregular and asymmetrical in general.

Whether or not the OP was suggesting this for aesthetic reasons is moot, as there's no way the game's representation of the world itself is/will/should change just because one lets a small minority of players build fortresses with layouts they like slightly more. What's paramount is how well it actually works.


I said you can't stack copies of a hexagonal grid in a manner which creates any sort of regular structure. This is entirely true. It's uniform, but it's not regular, and not even particularly close to it.

Dude, you have some serious i'm-right-you-go-fuck-yourself-issues you need to work with. This is a suggestion thread in which the OP made a suggestion(!), you stated your opinion on the matter and others do not agree. This is all good, there is no reason to convince anyone of your opinions superiority.

I'm trying to clear up mathematical fact here. I spent enough time looking stuff up about this that my head sort of hurt. I don't expect anybody else to have done that sort of thing, so I'm trying to make sure I'm getting facts across right.

The reason I made a big deal about the "regular structure" bit is because you were implying that stacking hexagons "works". I was trying to state in what ways it doesn't "work" compared to, say, cubes.
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deoxy

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Re: Hex Tiles
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2010, 06:19:05 pm »

Actually, you can also stack heaxgonal prisms as though they were spheres (think of a pile of oranges at the supermarket) - all tile centers are equi-distant from the tile centers of every immediate neighbor.

Of course, that causes other problems.

Straight lines are easy in 3 directions in a hex-based system, but only in 2 directions in a square based system.  Moving to three dimensions, that would be 9 and 6, respectively.

Right angles are impossible in a hex-system, but it does approximate circles MUCH better.

Of course, this is all quite moot, as it's not going to be done now, anyway.
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G-Flex

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Re: Hex Tiles
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2010, 07:02:28 pm »

Keep in mind that even if you can make the hex prisms equidistant from all adjacent ones, that still doesn't cover ones that meet at edges. Not that cubes do, granted.
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deoxy

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Re: Hex Tiles
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2010, 11:43:24 pm »

Actually, you can also stack heaxgonal prisms as though they were spheres (think of a pile of oranges at the supermarket) - all tile centers are equi-distant from the tile centers of every immediate neighbor.

Keep in mind that even if you can make the hex prisms equidistant from all adjacent ones, that still doesn't cover ones that meet at edges. Not that cubes do, granted.

If you stack them like spheres (offset from each other, as a pile of oranges, apples, or tennis balls), none of them would meet at edges, even across z-levels.  All tile centers would be equi-distant from all of neighboring centers, even across z-levels.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 11:45:04 pm by deoxy »
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Cespinarve

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Re: Hex Tiles
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2010, 03:30:01 pm »

The math is far, far beyond me, but I'd find the need for hexes to be moot if there was a graphical way to make a room look cirular, so that one could build a dome-  I know that in one of the latest AutoCADs ellipses are not actually ellipses but something to with splines and geometry and other complex stuff I don't get.  I'm a classics scholar, not a spatial analyst. My point is that a graphics motion to round and curve walls etc. would make me very happy, as current dwarven forts are always a little too... linear, for my tastes. A bit of roundness would work wonders.
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alamoes

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Re: Hex Tiles
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2010, 04:34:36 pm »

Later on maybe it can be an embark option, far in the future
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G-Flex

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Re: Hex Tiles
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2010, 04:38:35 pm »

The math is far, far beyond me, but I'd find the need for hexes to be moot if there was a graphical way to make a room look cirular, so that one could build a dome-  I know that in one of the latest AutoCADs ellipses are not actually ellipses but something to with splines and geometry and other complex stuff I don't get.  I'm a classics scholar, not a spatial analyst. My point is that a graphics motion to round and curve walls etc. would make me very happy, as current dwarven forts are always a little too... linear, for my tastes. A bit of roundness would work wonders.

Unfortunately, there's pretty much no way you're ever going to have smooth curves like that. The game will always be based on some sort of grid made up of nodes with straight line segments connecting them; there's really no way around that. As a graphical option, that's different, but keep in mind it would essentially be the game displaying detail that isn't actually there, meaning it would not only be purely aesthetic, but also slightly confusing, and you'd probably have to define the shapes yourself.

AutoCAD is far, far different, because it's effectively vector-based.


Later on maybe it can be an embark option, far in the future

This is something fairly fundamental to how the game works, both internally and in terms of display. Making it optional doesn't sound very reasonable to me.
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Felblood

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Re: Hex Tiles
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2010, 07:03:58 pm »

Oh, please no.

--At least not without better mouse support.

There is no intuitive way to move a cursor over a hex grid.
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snelg

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Re: Hex Tiles
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2010, 02:47:01 am »

Oh, please no.

--At least not without better mouse support.

There is no intuitive way to move a cursor over a hex grid.
Or an adventurer, numpad? arrow keys? would be painful.  ;D

While hex grids are cool and stuff, I don't think it would work very well with this game.
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