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Author Topic: Why exactly do we hate the elves so much?  (Read 6114 times)

Deathworks

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Re: Why exactly do we hate the elves so much?
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2010, 03:11:29 am »

Hi!

I would agree with this, as far as the community goes (much like the 'nobles must die' concept).

Well, that is how I understood the opening question, so we are in agreement, then. As for the fantasy rivalry, there are probably more influences than we can ever count, ranging from The Lord of The Rings and The Hobbit to the concept of opposing elemental spirits to simply different habitats leading to incompatibility in world view.

Actually, in Dwarf Fortress, I imagine that the initial seven dwarves, travelling through the land from the mountain homes have met the elves and humans while on the road, have received food and shelter from them, heard the tales of the past and tales about the surrounding area (which explains why you get all the engravings about the local, regional past in the fortress), and have received other help and encouragement.

This is also how the caravans work in my eyes - first, the dwarven empire sends a caravan to follow the seven, and that caravan asks the humans and elves where the dwarves went until they discover the dwarven fortress. On the way back, the caravan moves through the elven and human lands and tell their friends about the exact location of the fortress, which allows them to send trade caravans the next year themselves.

(This view makes a lot of sense for me as I usually embark in the middle of an elven forest empire, very often far away from my home civ)

Deathworks
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Naz

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Re: Why exactly do we hate the elves so much?
« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2010, 09:45:38 am »

The hatred of elves isn't entirely one dimensional. I'll deal with them as long as they keep bringing me log imports and happily haul away all the crap I loot off of goblin corpses. They've only demanded I not cut down trees once and I got ambushed by them once (which lasted all of 3 seconds thanks to a bunker full of legendary marksdwarves) though that didnt seem to affect diplomatic relations (I prefer to think they realized they were being a-holes). If they ever decide to break off ties and declare all out war on me then frankly, I wouldn't care. Their caravans are a convenience, not a necessity, and the goods I could turn the corpses into would be just as helpful as their imports.

To sum it up, live or dead, elves are useful. Killing them simply takes effort I'd rather direct elsewhere.
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Zwerg

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Re: Why exactly do we hate the elves so much?
« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2010, 10:08:15 am »

When I started playing DF I couldn't understand the whole elve hate thing, and still I dunno what the fuzz is all about. I purchase their drinks and wood and they move away, that's it. Often they helped me out when my forts were in bad condition. A few times they told me not to cut so many trees and I was fine with it, because I prefer stone anyway (like every Dwarf should).
Once I tried to start a war with them, but before they got angry enough, I changed my mind...because the only thing you should hate are the real enemies, so get over it!
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Satarus

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Re: Why exactly do we hate the elves so much?
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2010, 10:58:14 am »

I didn't understand it at first.  Then I got a baron and the blasted knife ears started demanding that I didn't chop down so many trees.  Plus they rarely ever brought anything useful for trade.  They sometimes brought sunberries or exotic animals, but mostly useless base quality cloth.  No reason to buy cloth when I can make better.  Everything else I could get from the humans and my own kind.  Plus the humans brought metal bars that I may not have the ores for.
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darkflagrance

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Re: Why exactly do we hate the elves so much?
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2010, 11:22:03 am »

They lack beards.

Simple as that.

The raws disagree with you.

See for yourself:

Code: [Select]
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Shoku

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Re: Why exactly do we hate the elves so much?
« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2010, 02:02:18 pm »

Hi!

Actually, I think it is a mixture of trying to be in the in-crowd by mimicking what others say and some myths/misconceptions.

For instance, people are still bringing about the myth about the more you trade with them, the more cloth you get before 31. That is definitely not true. I have always traded with them as long as I played my fortresses, and in various 3D versions, I got bears, giant eagles, and other interesting animals on a regular basis.

And I never stole from the elves, and tried to make my trade depot attacker safe (having no military, I had to rely on traps and so on, so it was not always possible).

Deathworks
The exotic animals did seem to be a right away or not at all thing but not knowing about the spread of an elven empire it certainly felt like it was just roulette until cloth suffocated the chances of anything else.
What I definitely DID see less of was wood. Trying to get by on a glacier is frustrating enough when I can't even make enough beds for the migrants much less the mechanics stuffs to power a pump stack so I can fill up a cistern. They were the factor that kept me from being able to embark on those sites without underground water, and after the torture of genning worlds trying to find a bunch of map features clustered up why wouldn't I need to take the frustration out through the form of genocide?
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Deathworks

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Re: Why exactly do we hate the elves so much?
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2010, 02:09:41 pm »

Hi!

Shoku: You are actually making a very important point, I think.

I usually gen worlds that become the home of large empires. I deliberately do that as it increases the diversity of the trade goods I get - the caravans will only bring goods that can be found around their settlements, so the more settlements, the more diverse the goods I may see.

It might be that many people do not create worlds favoring such circumstances, which may help explain why the caravans are so inadequate for their needs. Although the question of when the elves bring wood and when not is actually one I can't answer as that one seems to be very random.

Deathworks
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Eric Blank

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Re: Why exactly do we hate the elves so much?
« Reply #52 on: May 13, 2010, 05:13:02 pm »

I've never had a war with the elves, and have only once had to deal with their wood dictation, mostly because I use very little wood, buying metal from the trade caravans in exchange for their carting off the stones I won't need in the form of worthless crafts.

They can be a vital resource or a major obstacle, depending on where you are, and what you're doing. Metal industries not powered by magma traditionally had to use wood. At this point, elves are still useful since they tend to bring plenty of logs, so you can take 1-200 plus logs down in summer when they leave and have them all used up (typical for me, my wood piles are always empty.) That way there are no logs in your stockpile. They aren't currently smart enough to figure out that you cut anything down without you having a huge stockpile of wood.
They're most hate-able simply because I completely disagree with the way they want my dwarves to live, hate their attitudes, and I often accidentally offer them some wood product and they abandon ship almost immediately. At this point they get locked in and washed into the 'grinder', a waterfall on one wall of the trade depot that washes everything in the depot into a massive pit on the other end, where they promptly explode in beautiful gore, all on top of weapon traps to chop up any survivors. If i decide I really don't like them or the useless junk they brought me, I may well pour magma on it, but in 2010 I can just use the vast amounts of alcohol they bring to satiate my dwarves until the next elven caravan comes by, so that is often not wise.

So I am sadistic and often kill the elves, but I just as often ignore their presence/trade for petty things WAR BEARS.

On my next tundra map I may well start a war since their caged animals always die and I can get wood in the caverns.
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Psieye

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Re: Why exactly do we hate the elves so much?
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2010, 04:56:24 am »

Impossible. The greatness of gold causes elves to explode into flame upon touching its beauty.

Much like how silver kills werewolves, gold makes elves explode.
Wahaha, so elves now have the same weakness as Japanese Youkai? It's interesting actually - depending on which mythologies you look at, gold is either an anti-monster metal or a demon-aligned colour.

Anyway, now that wood is much easier to get thanks to underground wet caverns (which can be guaranteed by worldgen params) assuming you don't reclaim (as that gets rid of all your mud), the value of elves after the early-midgame has gone down: they bring low grade cloth which is undesirable if you have a serious textile industry going, you can grow the surface seeds to make their booze and so only exotic animals are worth trading for.

Quote from: Deathworks
I usually gen worlds that become the home of large empires. I deliberately do that as it increases the diversity of the trade goods I get - the caravans will only bring goods that can be found around their settlements, so the more settlements, the more diverse the goods I may see.

It might be that many people do not create worlds favoring such circumstances, which may help explain why the caravans are so inadequate for their needs. Although the question of when the elves bring wood and when not is actually one I can't answer as that one seems to be very random.
That gives me one more reason to try out a "Year 2 end worldgen" fort. See exactly what happens when there is minimal history in the world.
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albatross

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Re: Why exactly do we hate the elves so much?
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2010, 06:21:11 am »

This one time a bunch of kobolds ambushed an elven caravan right in front of my fort entrance. After the fight was over (with elves killed of course), I noticed that every single weapon the elves were using were made of WOOD. Bows? Made of wood (not that shocking, but still..). Swords? Also wood (*jawdrop*). I... I think some of the armor pieces were made of wood, too! (*disbelief*) That's when I stopped respecting them. Makes me wonder if they use wooden axes to cut down the trees... or wooden saws. To hell with them. I can always build a walled off 30x30 tile section on the surface to function as a garden. From there I can get what little wood is really needed (the beds, the first 20-30 bins etc).

That's why we hate elves.
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IronyOwl

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Re: Why exactly do we hate the elves so much?
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2010, 07:51:24 am »

Personally, I love elves. The chance to get exotic animals alone justifies their existence.

Of course, I'm also fairly prone to barren wasteland fortresses, so the fact that they bring wood and edibles probably helps their image to me a lot more than it would a normal player. I've never really experienced any of their irritations, either- I don't have any residual hate from elves in general, I often don't have enough trees to anger them and build almost everything out of stone anyway, and I've never really found myself enraged that someone didn't bother to bring anything worth trading. I've angered them by offering wood once or twice, but that just struck me as a mistake on my part, rather than a reason to activate The Chamber.
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Iapetus

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Re: Why exactly do we hate the elves so much?
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2010, 03:53:52 pm »

My main beef with the elves:

Throwing a tantrum and pissing off if you accidently sell them anything made of/containing wood.  (Not often a problem now, but when I was a newbie it happend quite often.  Once several dwarves died because I was out of food and depending on the caravan for supplies, and I accidently tried to sell them a wooden doodah).

Complaining about you cutting down trees (especially given that what they are actually complaining about is how many logs you have - in one instance I was on a treeless map, and they were complaining about logs *they had sold me*.

Being increadibly patronizing when they complain about tree cutting, or when they congratulate you on not cutting down any trees, or in various other diplomatic exchanges.

Often only bringing worthless goods cloth, wooden weapons, wooden armour that doesn't fit, etc.  (Human armour doesn't fit either, but if you have a shortage of metal but an abundance of trade goods and magma you can buy it and recycle it).
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