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[Yobgod]

Don't panic... it's part of a larger plan.

1) Remove the Quern
2) Add a new power structure, the 'Capstan'.

A Capstan is 3x3 and requires wood and 4 chains/ropes. It then functions exactly as if it were a cage with space for 4 creatures. For each creature assigned, the capstan generates 15 power.

Additionally, each empty slot on a Capstan generates a 'Power Generation' job that a dwarf can fill, replacing 'Pump Operation' as the manual labor of choice.
(I'd consider removing manual pump operation completely in favor of capstans...)

Benefits:
* Makes the 'manual' version of the millstone a generic power source rather than a strange exception.
* Gives you something productive to do with those stray Musk-Oxen, Horses, Mules and Goblin Master Thieves.
* The power isn't completely free... since it's treated as a cage someone does have to feed/water the creatures powering your capstans.
* Potential for enough power to make 'fun' engineering projects possible without the perpetual motion machine.
* Go watch the early scenes of Conan again, then capture all the Elvish traders and put them to "the wheel".

"Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?"

[ February 02, 2008: Message edited by: Yobgod ]

[McDoomhammer]

quote:Originally posted by Yobgod:
<STRONG>* Gives you something productive to do with those stray Musk-Oxen, Horses, Mules and Goblin Master Thieves.
...
"Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?"

[ February 02, 2008: Message edited by: Yobgod ]</STRONG>

*cackle* You win a hoary marmot.

quote:* The power isn't completely free... since it's treated as a cage someone does have to feed/water the creatures powering your capstans.

Actually, right now they don't.  Unless you're referring to a future update or something I don't know about?

[Abyssal Squid]

quote:Originally posted by Yobgod:
<STRONG>* Makes the 'manual' version of the millstone a generic power source rather than a strange exception.</STRONG>

From Wikipedia:
Quern-stones have been used throughout the world to grind materials, the most important of which was usually grain to make flour for bread-making. They were generally replaced by millstones once mechanised forms of milling appeared, particularly the water mill and the windmill, although animals were also used to operate the millstones. However, in many non-Westernised, non-mechanised cultures they are still manufactured and used regularly and have only been replaced in many parts of the world in the last century or so.

I wouldn't want to have to build a new buidling using 4 chains and more wood just to be able to operate a single pump, either, although having more ways of generating power is still good.

[Salmeuk]

I like the idea, mainly because it gives us a reason to have cattle.

Maybe this whole "cage=power" idea could be used in other things?

[penguinofhonor]

.

[Hague]

Yeah, just be careful, you might end up having your slaves grow too strong, pondering the Riddle of Steel as they work the capstain. Just don't lose your head...

[Zonhin]

I had a similar idea, involving a noble known as a Slaver or Driver (Depending on whether it works with animals or slaves.)

I also had an idea for a slave powered power source.

I also had an idea for a spring battery. The spring battery essentially stores power, like a battery. It has two sides, an input and an output. The input slowly takes in any excess power, and when a lever is pulled, the output acts like a power source until it runs out. Then the lever is pulled again, and it begins taking in power again.

[ February 03, 2008: Message edited by: Zonhin ]

[Puzzlemaker]

quote:Originally posted by Zonhin:
<STRONG>I had a similar idea, involving a noble known as a Slaver or Driver (Depending on whether it works with animals or slaves.)

I also had an idea for a slave powered power source.

I also had an idea for a spring battery. The spring battery essentially stores power, like a battery. It has two sides, an input and an output. The input slowly takes in any excess power, and when a lever is pulled, the output acts like a power source until it runs out. Then the lever is pulled again, and it begins taking in power again.

[ February 03, 2008: Message edited by: Zonhin ]</STRONG>

the battery can just be a water-holder, with a waterwheel at one end and pumps at the other.

Extra power goes to the pumps.  When you need power, the floodgate opens and the waterwheel spins.  Viola!

[Yobgod]

"Quern-stones have been used throughout the world to grind materials"

I think you misunderstand me. The "quern" is older than the "powered millstone" but it physically is just a millstone with an attached apparatus for using manual power (usually draft animals and not people, btw) to run it.

The current DF arrangement is incongruous because, for some buildings, power source and machinery are separated, but in the case of the quern they are (seemingly inexplicably) joined together. Usually in a game you'd have either options to build a watermill, windmill, or quern, OR options to build a millstone and water, wind, or manual power source.

I was trying to keep the original suggestion simple, so I didn't propose multiple types of capstan... but you're correct that, in order to more efficiently power single items there should be the option for a single capstan with room for one draft animal or dwarf as well as the 'quad' capstan for general power generation.

[Abyssal Squid]

Ok, that makes perfect sense, although I'd figure quern-stones to be smaller than millstones.  Then again, these are dwarves we're talking about, who run off with an entire felled tree without breaking a sweat so turning a big millstone by hand shouldn't be too much trouble for them.

[PTTG??]

Capstan = I like. Especially if the player can use these in Adv. mode. I imagine a  door that only stays open as long as water is emptying from a nearby silo. A large handle is nearby, and in order to pass, the hero must fill the silo faster than it drains so that the door remains open long enough to enter the ruins. The door closes behind him, trapping him where he can only hope there is some secret escape!

I am totally building that now.

[Toady One]

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~semitic/HOAI/images/pic-6-1quern-lg.png

was what I had in mind.

There's a dev item for animal power, but I don't see why the quern as it stands has to go, or why it is necessarily interchangeable with a millstone.

[Draco18s]

quote:Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>There's a dev item for animal power, but I don't see why the quern as it stands has to go, or why it is necessarily interchangeable with a millstone.</STRONG>

I think that if there was some kind of Job Time or Max Quality or...some other value to having a millstone over a quern, then I could see keeping them, though that means that there needs to be value in using a quern (the "not building" a windmill isn't quite enough, it's only four logs).