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[G-Flex]

I personally have no idea why leaving this up to the states is a good idea. I see no significant reason why this stuff should vary so much from state to state, and I can see it leading to problematic regionalism, and issues with poorer states not being able to afford to take care of their own citizens. Healthcare is an issue of basic needs; this is something that we know every state needs, and that everyone in every state needs to roughly the same degree.

[RedKing]

My main problem with leaving it to the states, is that some states are just downright retarded. I could see Mississippi passing some kind of "faith-based healthcare" wherein when you got sick, a Pentecostal preacher would slap you in the head and yell "BE HEALED!"

As to this:

Now, I'm not opposed to giving as many people access to this care as possible and I never said it wasn't a problem.  I get the idea that you think that's where I'm coming from... and you are blanket attacking me because you think I'm somehow totally opposed to giving people access to this...

I think maybe it has something to do with this:

How can everyone have a chance of being successful, declare bankruptcy when that happens and have no worries in life?  That's what you're asking for.  If nobody has to worry about starving to death or being able to afford a lifesaving operation, where's the motivation to continue doing things that you may not like doing but must be done? 

You certainly seemed to think that the utter lack of a social safety net was a good cattle prod to keep those lazy plebians working. BTW, despite what you've said, I think you'd love modern-day China. Cause they've pretty much thrown that whole Communism thing out the window. Yeah, the government still runs everything, but now if you're a worker and get your hands chopped off in a factory accident, there's none of this pinko worker's compensation crap. Your ass better learn to beg really good, Stumpy, otherwise you're going to starve. But if you can start a B2B facilitator to help ship cheap plastic crap to American retailers? Oh yeah, we're talking McMansion, Maserati, Gucci suit, live-in maid, maybe a vacation house in another country.

Go to Shanghai. You will see what REAL capitalism looks like. 5% of the population live like rock stars, maybe 20% live a "middle-class" life, and the rest are scraping s**t off the streets. And that's not counting the carnival sideshow of cripples who litter the subways, the waterfront, the shopping districts.

See, America has already been there and done that, about 130 years ago. We had a handful of guys who pretty much owned everything. A small "middle class" of clerks, doctors and other educated citizens, and then a big old mass of coal miners, steel mill workers, factory workers, etc. who just squeaked by and tried not to die too early. And as a society, we pretty much said that's not acceptable. That's why we have things like OSHA and the FDA now. So that we won't have to go through things that China is going through, like poisoned milk, tainted cough medicine and incredibly hazardous coal mines and fireworks factories.

[Leafsnail]

Andir - stop whining.  You failed to prevent a "socialist" government from coming to power, therefore you deserve everything you get from them.  If you're annoyed about it, go and become president.  If you don't, you're just lazy and shiftless.

I'd never get elected because I'm an atheist and I'd also never get a Democrat or Republican nomination.  I've covered that in the other thread.  Our country is so screwed up when it comes to that.  When religion trumps education as far as issues are concerned there's not much you are going to be able to do.  Also, I didn't "fail" to prevent it.  I voted and did everything in my power to stop it.  I even voted, just this week, in the primaries for the local and government officials that best fit my ideals.  Also, it's funny that you consider this conversation whining... no, it's sad really.  You are so diametrically set in your way that any alternative view is considered whining.

Well, you missed the sarcasm... basically, if factory workers can manipulate the world economy in order to keep themselves employed all the time, you can surely do something simple like become president.  Many of these people did everyone they could to avoid unemployment, but became unemployed anyway, and are gonna suffer due to America's current healthcare system.  But it HAS to be their fault, right?  And they deserve to die for whatever it is they did wrong.

Also, saying "America has the best if money is no object" is useless.  I mean, if money is no object, you could just hire a personal team of doctors to give you round the clock care whenever you wanted it.  Money is, and will always be, a factor.

[Neruz]

Andir - stop whining.  You failed to prevent a "socialist" government from coming to power, therefore you deserve everything you get from them.  If you're annoyed about it, go and become president.  If you don't, you're just lazy and shiftless.

I'd never get elected because I'm an atheist and I'd also never get a Democrat or Republican nomination.  I've covered that in the other thread.  Our country is so screwed up when it comes to that.  When religion trumps education as far as issues are concerned there's not much you are going to be able to do.  Also, I didn't "fail" to prevent it.  I voted and did everything in my power to stop it.  I even voted, just this week, in the primaries for the local and government officials that best fit my ideals.  Also, it's funny that you consider this conversation whining... no, it's sad really.  You are so diametrically set in your way that any alternative view is considered whining.

Well, you missed the sarcasm... basically, if factory workers can manipulate the world economy in order to keep themselves employed all the time, you can surely do something simple like become president.  Many of these people did everyone they could to avoid unemployment, but became unemployed anyway, and are gonna suffer due to America's current healthcare system.  But it HAS to be their fault, right?  And they deserve to die for whatever it is they did wrong.

Also, saying "America has the best if money is no object" is useless.  I mean, if money is no object, you could just hire a personal team of doctors to give you round the clock care whenever you wanted it.  Money is, and will always be, a factor.

The thing is, as fenrif has been saying, America doesn't have the best, even if money is no object. The American healthcare system is also less efficient, less effective and more unsafe than other first-world healthcare systems.