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[Deimos56]

There is no good.
There is no evil.

More appropriately, there is, but it exists on a personal level mostly.

What I'm trying to say, I guess, is something along the lines of:
The goblins are 'evil' because whoever/whatever is in charge of them (usually a demon. Which is probably a tad irritable that its brethren are locked up far beneath the earth.) has basically engineered their culture to a point where they are raised to believe concepts such as slavery and murder to be personal matters. Meanwhile, they preach that the dwarves are in fact evil, sending the goblins to 'rescue' the children of the dwarves and sending goblin armies to siege the dwarves.

Taking this a step further, perhaps the goblin's (usually) demonic leader has ulterior motives for antagonizing the dwarves. Dwarves, generally being somewhat... greedy... beings, will, upon discovering they are under siege, will (at least occasionally) seek out adamantine, the strongest substance they know of, to counter the threat.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Indirectly releasing the demon's brethren. Who will, having quite probably gone mad from years of imprisonment, will happily slaughter the dwarves... or perhaps the ancestors of the Dwarves are the ones who imprisoned the demons?

On the other hand, maybe the demons are just inherently sadistic. Who knows? In any event, entire races shouldn't be evil... although perhaps some may have somewhat selfish tendencies that cause individuals to become 'evil'.

...Should I stop posting late at night?

[Janizary]

There is no good.
There is no evil.

...Should I stop posting late at night?

Nah, though this is becoming increasingly tangental from the original topic, we all seem to agree good and evil flags should be dropped. What seems to be left is should ethnic groups come into gameplay?

[Silverionmox]

There should be cultural groups, of course.

I don't think it would be worthwhile to model a gradual process of speciation. It would take such a long time to develop, during which there should be almost no interbreeding at all... meaning that they are effectively not taking part in the game world. Even the most genetically isolated humans (pygmees or !Kung San if I'm not mistaken) still are able to procreate with other humans. So we're looking at more than ten millenia before it could possibly show up.

There are ways to include physical differences in groups in the game: if physical characteristics are inheritable, as it seems they will be, different families will automatically pass on their characteristics; as history unfolds, they will spread differently et voila, regional physical variations.

Alternatively, it could be possible to smuggle a few physical characteristics into the cultural definition, but that seems contrived and too deterministic to me.

[chucks]

There is no good.
There is no evil.

...Should I stop posting late at night?

Nah, though this is becoming increasingly tangental from the original topic, we all seem to agree good and evil flags should be dropped. What seems to be left is should ethnic groups come into gameplay?

I don't agree that good and evil flags should be dropped, and I don't recognize your privilege of speaking for the masses in this manner.

IRL, whether good and evil exists is moot.  In df, I can suspend enough disbelief to easily say "demons, goblins, kobolds, megabeasts are evil.  humans, dwarves, and elves are good."  There is a point that I feel that this should still remain a game and not an anthropologically accurate civilization simulator.

However, despite innate tendencies of races and cultural groups to gravitate to good or evil, any culture or individuals in a culture should be able to change their moral alignment towards good or evil through action and thought and emotion.

[Silverionmox]

I'm frankly sick and tired of absolute evil and absolute good. They're just team A and team B. In most games boths sides are almost mirror images of each other. It's a flimsy excuse to skip the diplomacy and go straight to battle, regardless of the side you're on.

That shouldn't stop you from creating civilizations that allow slavery, start with dictatorships, etc. It will automatically place them at odds with civilizations that have other government forms, have abolished slavery, etc. Not because they are in a different team, but because their interests are opposed. The slavery civ doesn't like free slaves, because it stimulates rebellions by its own slaves, etc.
Also, the ideological conflict tends to overshadow the real conflicts of interest that arise between civs. Two "good" civs can still become agressive towards each other because of the discovery of gold somewhere near a badly defined border, etc.

[Craftling]

Noone actually thinks they are evil anyway. Has there ever been a civilization EVER that thought itself evil? I dont think so. The evil ones are usually the other guys who have different ideas from the supposed "good" guys. Were the Muslims evil in the crusades? They didnt think so. But the Christians were'nt evil either. Neither of them were, neither was anyone else.

[Janizary]

Were the Muslims evil in the crusades? They didnt think so. But the Christians were'nt evil either. Neither of them were, neither was anyone else.

I'd say that yes, the Christians were evil, they slaughtered more Hungarians than they did Muslims on many of the crusades.

[Deimos56]

Before I go off on a rant about abrahamic religions in general, let's just get the thread back on track, shall we?

[Mel_Vixen]

Well the only CIV by definition that has subraces are Goblins.

How will the Race-groups in a Goblin-civ interact? I mean judging by their traits i would say Goblins are the intelligents, dwarfes more the crafters and miners, Elfes do the artsi and Philosophical stuff and Humans are overall workers and farmers and fighters.

What about prejustice for example and internal fights between members of two races? How do they handle that stuff?

Furthermore what kind of possition might demons have especally if there might be someday the chance of having multiple demons in one goblinciv.

[chucks]

Furthermore what kind of possition might demons have especally if there might be someday the chance of having multiple demons in one goblinciv.

A head coven of beasts only fathomable within the depths of a sane man's worst nightmares.  I tend to think something like the Robot Elders from the Futurama episode with the all-robot planet.

[Janizary]

Silence!  I agree to a degree that the Demons which may control a civilization should not be overtly known to rule, they should puppet the leader.

A demon comes in contact with Elven hunter Ditxy, but does not kill it, chooses to drive it mad, enslave it, then send it back to it's civilization as a puppet.  The puppet Ditxy becomes a great hero, after fighting against a great demon, who strangely looks just like the one who corrupted Ditxy.  Ditxy becomes a big player in the Elven civilization, and prompts greater specialization in anti-demonology, through the mastery of demonology...   And in come the demonic possessions, the blood pacts, the dark magics, sacrifices.  Quickly these Wild Elves have become Hellish Elves, with red glowing eyes and great arcane power, but all being directly controlled by Ditxy's master, while Ditxy looks like the second in command.  Then comes a horror, the demon returns with a bunch of Goblins it threatened into attacking, a huge battle ensues, the Druids are slaughtered in the ensuing madness and Ditxy takes control as the new Lord of the Hellish Elves by using his amazing power to drive back the demon.

Or at least, that's one history I thought would be neat to uncover.