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[Aquillion]

While thinking about the problems some people have had with demands or fey moods for things that aren't available at their location, I came up with a (partial) solution:  Why not allow dwarves to use the alchemist's workshop to transmute base metals, turn glass to crystals, and perform a few other, similar feats?  Naturally, such things would require absolutely huge amounts of materials and wouldn't be feasible to outfit your entire fortress, but they could be used when you absolutely need something that simply isn't available any other way.

This fits in with the original concept of an 'alchemist'.  While it might seem magical, it wouldn't be, really; the dwarven alchemists would simply be using properties of their world, in the same way that real-world alchemists sought to use the properties of our world to perform useful transmutations.

[Raiden333]

I really really like this idea. Lead to gold!

[MindSnap]

Rather than have it use a set amount of materials, have the probability that it produces ANYTHING start at low levels, and be tied to alchemy skill. Say, at no adjective alchemist, a 10% chance of the expected outcome, 20% chance of something random, and 80% chance of nothing coming out. Only metals to metals, rock to rock,  gems to gems etc. And no adamantium fabrication.

[WyldKarde]

The trouble with having a huge chance of either total failure or an undesired result is that it undermines the stated purpose here, which is to supply hard to find items for fey moods.  It should be non-trivial though, so perhaps huge raw materials requirements based on the relative values of the materials?  So for example, gold into platinum might require ten bars of gold, but claystone into platinum would require a hundred or more blocks (not rocks, blocks).  Naturally, that would lead to an extremely cluttered workshop and so would take even a legendary Alchemist some time to process.

Alternatively, let the value of the desired output only be achievable at a given level of Alchemy skill.  Even a dabbling alchemist could produce a common stone such as shale from another kind of common stone (at a 5-1 ratio, perhaps), but it would take a Master alchemist to produce gold from lead or crystal glass from green glass (still at a ratio of 5-1 or worse).

(Disclaimer: All numbers, relative skill levels etc are pulled out of thin air and are unlikely to stand up to any scrutiny)

[RubberDuckofDoom]

Personally, I like the alchemist's shop to do alchemy, not magic, regardless of what it's called. The two aren't the same. Misguided in terms of goals and as badly organized as it was, Alchemy was a science, and it is where we get Chemistry from.

That's why the Alchemist makes lye right now and not fireball scrolls. Transmuting materials would, in addition to game concerns, seem kind of silly and wrong to me.

Your milage may vary.

[ November 26, 2007: Message edited by: RubberDuckofDoom ]

[Angela Christine]

It wouldn't be too bad for them to be able to make some kind of crystal that would count as a raw gem though.  You can buy chemistry sets that grow crystals, you mix some of this powder and that liquid and then wait and wait and wait, and voila you get crystals.  Heck, you can grow crystals out of sugar or salt -- though they aren't that great for jewelery. http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/crystals.htm#single%20crystals

I think it would be great for dwarfs to be able to make an inexpensive crystal that doesn't require sand.

[MindSnap]

quote:Originally posted by WyldKarde:
<STRONG>The trouble with having a huge chance of either total failure or an undesired result is that it undermines the stated purpose here, which is to supply hard to find items for fey moods.  It should be non-trivial though, so perhaps huge raw materials requirements based on the relative values of the materials?  So for example, gold into platinum might require ten bars of gold, but claystone into platinum would require a hundred or more blocks (not rocks, blocks).  Naturally, that would lead to an extremely cluttered workshop and so would take even a legendary Alchemist some time to process.

Alternatively, let the value of the desired output only be achievable at a given level of Alchemy skill.  Even a dabbling alchemist could produce a common stone such as shale from another kind of common stone (at a 5-1 ratio, perhaps), but it would take a Master alchemist to produce gold from lead or crystal glass from green glass (still at a ratio of 5-1 or worse).</STRONG>

I understand that it would undermine the purpose, but somehow just "processing" huge amounts of materials A) would be assumed to not have any waste, and therfore be a rock-sink or something and B) just no feel right. Alchemists should be mysterious,clever and elegant, not just run industrial transmutation factories.

The skill-based method would be preferable, but would limit the usefulness if you had to train an alchemist up to legendary to satisfy a mood. I also imagine that training an alchemist would be rather more difficult than training a mason.

Idea: once recipes are in, the alchemist shop has 2 functions: use recipe, which  follows a recipe (the shop might start off with a few simple ones), or experiment, which could be dangerous for lower-skill alchemists and possible result in new recipes based upon the materials experimented with. Experimenting would also train alchemists relatively quickly(3-4 years to get to legendary?).

[Xombie]

I dont like it. Making a good stuff out of crap sounds like a cheat to me. Other than that i don`t like whole idea of so-called transmutation.

And i actually like absence of magic in this game. Have no idea if it`s planned though. Let`s hope not since this is only medieval-fantasy game without magic i know of.

[Kyselina]

Plums to gold!

[Istrian]

quote:Originally posted by MindSnap:
<STRONG>

I understand that it would undermine the purpose, but somehow just "processing" huge amounts of materials A) would be assumed to not have any waste, and therfore be a rock-sink or something and B) just no feel right. Alchemists should be mysterious,clever and elegant, not just run industrial transmutation factories.

The skill-based method would be preferable, but would limit the usefulness if you had to train an alchemist up to legendary to satisfy a mood. I also imagine that training an alchemist would be rather more difficult than training a mason.

Idea: once recipes are in, the alchemist shop has 2 functions: use recipe, which  follows a recipe (the shop might start off with a few simple ones), or experiment, which could be dangerous for lower-skill alchemists and possible result in new recipes based upon the materials experimented with. Experimenting would also train alchemists relatively quickly(3-4 years to get to legendary?).</STRONG>

In litterature alchemists are known for being secretive and not very likely to follow orders, so you could balance the fact that alchemy would be a rock-sink by making the alchemist getting bad thoughts from having to follow your annoying orders (especially if he gets a bad thought for every item you want him to use as a component).

Thus, you would have to be careful so that you don't end up with a legendary alchemist wreaking havoc in your fortress or transmuting your whole stock of beer into poison (not that much of a difference, anyway).

And make Alchemist an appointed noble position (with an assistant whom the alchemist would chose randomly from your population).

[Angela Christine]

quote:Originally posted by Xombie:
<STRONG>I dont like it. Making a good stuff out of crap sounds like a cheat to me. </STRONG>

Like making glass out of sand?

[Alfador]

quote:Originally posted by Xombie:
<STRONG>I dont like it. Making a good stuff out of crap sounds like a cheat to me. Other than that i don`t like whole idea of so-called transmutation.

And i actually like absence of magic in this game. Have no idea if it`s planned though. Let`s hope not since this is only medieval-fantasy game without magic i know of.</STRONG>

It's got dragons, fire-shooting demons, and an unused "magical" tag for items. I think you're eventually going to experience disappointment here.

[Grek]

Some things I'd like to see alchemists able to do:

Smelt zinc bars
Make rock cystals out of clear glass at a 1 to 1 ratio
Make rock crstals out of green glass at a 3 to 1 ratio
Extract sulfer from galena, sphalerite or alunite
Make vitriol from sulfer
Extract aqua fortis from ammonia
Make muriatic acid  from salt and vitriol
Make aqua rega from aqua fortis and muriatic acid
Extract salt and a bucket of drinkable water from a bucket of salt water
Make rubies into sapphires
Make sapphires into rubies
Make emeralds into aquamarines
Make aquamarines into emeralds
Make amethyst from clear glass at a 1 to 1 ratio
Make amethyst from green glass at a 3 to 1 ratio
Chemical lanterns from zinc, magnesium, ect.

All of these can be done with chemistry and without magic.

[ November 26, 2007: Message edited by: Grek ]

[Kusgnos]

Dwarf Fortress holds its own kind of realism, so I'm not too into the whole transmuting idea.

quote:Originally posted by Angela Christine:
 Like making glass out of sand?

Heheh, but you really can make glass out of sand, and it works well in DF. The alchemy idea of transmuting elements into each other isn't real, and I can't see a good way to balance it in these suggestions. Unless we let the dwarves discover and harness radioactive decay, as well as nuclear fission and fusion. The possibilities! Dwarf Nuclear Silo Base, anyone?

quote:Originally posted by Alfador:
It's got dragons, fire-shooting demons, and an unused "magical" tag for items. I think you're eventually going to experience disappointment here.

Well, it's likely that magic of some sort will be implemented into DF, but about the dragons and demons, they have their own set of "realism" in them. I like to think that it isn't magic that the dragons and demons use for their fireballs, but that there's a completely pragmatic explanation for it. They're not summoning fireballs out of thin air, they're somehow utilizing the heat naturally exuded by their bodies and projecting it through, I don't know, incredibly fast convection because of their adaptation to their magma environment. Dragons can do something fancy with methane.

And the legends about adamantine could be just stories fabricated by people who want an explanation--after all, a cave area with this precious, powerful metal that hosts hordes of vile and murderous creatures is bound to have stories about it, and if it's occuring often in the world, then civilizations will have cultural tales about these underground locales, when in fact, the adamantine may be a natural process, like diamonds forming from compressed carbon. Demons might live there just because of natural factors or preference, and adamantine eventually grows and seals the location. Perhaps it's something about the combination of heat from the demons and particular molecules or elements in the soil that foster adamantine growth?

...

I think I got sidetracked on how great DF is, instilling such an imagination in me. Heh. Anyway, I just wanted to say how much I like Grek's idea, since it holds realism, and also has intelligent and useful ways for alchemists, or rudimentary chemists, to participate in productive work in a dwarven fortress. Just make sure we have the right catalysts or whatever's needed to create those substances, and then it actually makes sense. Great suggestion, Grek.