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[varkarrus]

So far, there are 3 kinds of people who want magic in the game:

1) People who want procedurely generated magic
2) People who want magic raws (me)
3) People who don't want magic at all.

Here's what I have to say: I think the game should come with both 1 and 2, with 1 being the majority, and 2 being a couple spells like dragonbreath and so on. Then, in entity files, you can limit or remove the amount of procedurely generated magic that the entity uses, to fill up space for modded magic. This is probably the most versatile.

Also, for people who don't want magic at all, remember how modabble this game is supposed to be. Vanilla DF, once it's finished, will still probably not be perfect, and the fun of it will probably be from using mods.

[Capntastic]

For what it's worth, Toady has said he wants '1' tempered by '2' and likewise the option for '3'.

[neek]

So, instead, have RAW-enabled in files, and an option (perhaps as a world gen parameter, or simple an init line) to opt in or out of magic? I can see that happen rather effectively.

[Dakk]

You'd probably have to gen a new world if you turned it off though, or else you'd up with a world filled with wizards who can only do lame pull-a-groundhog-from-under-my-hood trick.

[neek]

Now that you mention it, should be a world-gen parameter. Magic is something that will shake up an entire world but should be able to be easily removed if you don't want it.

[varkarrus]

Speaking of which, I'd like to see responses to when the raws are switched mid-world. If you suddenly mod groundhogs to be size 20, make every dwarf worry about the sudden increase of groundhog size. Make wizards suicidal if magic is turned off, with very few being able to cope.

[alfie275]

If magic is turned off then the magic wielding overlords might have a bit of a problem when the enslaved peasants realise there is no more magic.

[Silverionmox]

Speaking of which, I'd like to see responses to when the raws are switched mid-world. If you suddenly mod groundhogs to be size 20, make every dwarf worry about the sudden increase of groundhog size. Make wizards suicidal if magic is turned off, with very few being able to cope.

That's very meta. It would require all the previous version of the raws to remain accessible, otherwise creatures won't have a point of reference to notice something is amiss.

[Starver]

For worldgens without a total absence of magic, how about the default to phase the efficacy across worldgen, and possibly (for long enough game-time sessions) the life of a fortress/adventurer?

It could either be done in a variety of ways, e.g.:

• "When the world was young, and the elements were still volatile, great Magycks could be worked by all, but as the world matured and Forces of Creation were tempered, Nature restricted us all to the more mundane workings of the Universe.  And so Technology was born.", or
• "And so it came to pass that Nimrod, the eventual father of the lesser demonic races, unlocked untapped reserves of energy held in limbo since the Time of Creation, and thus upon the world, Magic was born.  And those that seized upon the New Powers did invest their spirits and souls in numerous objects and signs, and now the Great Age of Wizardry was upon the world, and so the general populace of many civilisations and races took upon the art, adopting or shunning it according to their aptitude, prejudices and station in life.", or
• "Aye, sir, for it is said that once every three hundred years, when the Great Comet passes across the sky by both day and by night, Powers come to those chosen to wield them.  And by the divination of my hidden brotherhood, helped in some small way by the genealogical record-keeping of our secret library, we mark thou as vessel due to be filled in three seasons hence.  And so we have three questions of you.  And pray unto your God Of Tilling that the answers you give allow us to bring you into the exalted position we have prepared for the right candidate, and do not force us to slay you, ere your powers rise to turn against us and the world we choose to represent!  Now, respond quickly, for our time is short and we must take your very first utterance, lest we be fooled as we were fooled on those prior occasions..."

(Or make it reliant upon times of full moons, or a limited amount of magical energy in an area so that an Expedition may choose to rend mountains immediately upon arrival but can not then use the Growth spells season after season that they might otherwise have employed...  There's lots of options.  Personally, I find that good narratives are based upon boundaries, so transitional events could make things Interesting.  For good or ill, or maybe just restrict magical occurrences to Water Elemental magic within range/sight of a sufficiently large body of water, etc...)

[h3lblad3]

Speaking of which, I'd like to see responses to when the raws are switched mid-world. If you suddenly mod groundhogs to be size 20, make every dwarf worry about the sudden increase of groundhog size. Make wizards suicidal if magic is turned off, with very few being able to cope.

That's very meta. It would require all the previous version of the raws to remain accessible, otherwise creatures won't have a point of reference to notice something is amiss.

Keep a copy of the old raws in the save folder somehow so they can cross-reference?

[nenjin]

Speaking of which, I'd like to see responses to when the raws are switched mid-world. If you suddenly mod groundhogs to be size 20, make every dwarf worry about the sudden increase of groundhog size. Make wizards suicidal if magic is turned off, with very few being able to cope.

I would kind of prefer my dwarves respond to more important things, like being on fire, before they start reacting to meta-level changes made by the player.

[Silverionmox]

Speaking of which, I'd like to see responses to when the raws are switched mid-world. If you suddenly mod groundhogs to be size 20, make every dwarf worry about the sudden increase of groundhog size. Make wizards suicidal if magic is turned off, with very few being able to cope.

That's very meta. It would require all the previous version of the raws to remain accessible, otherwise creatures won't have a point of reference to notice something is amiss.

Keep a copy of the old raws in the save folder somehow so they can cross-reference?

It would not only require keeping track of how the world works, but also how every dwarf thinks the world works, and how these thoughts change over time. That would require a supercomputer by itself.

Starver: Those ideas are right on the mark for the spirit of the game! (They also reminded me of the Dying Earth books by Jack Vance, which would be a great source of inspiration for this game: Characters of The Dying Earth.)

[Mel_Vixen]

Actually you do for the shadow-population only a average change over time and every 20000 (Approx for a normal world) real NPCs you do it event-vice depending who is on screen. In every "Magic-modifier" instance you add little tweak that compares expection and actual stuff happening, the Result from this gets combined with the NPCs actual thoughts. It also gets to the Knowledge-base (Toady has some concepts for one) if Urist is a Blabbermouth. 

It might thought slow WG down, by around 30 seconds at max i guess.