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[Thanshin]

It's a classic RTS concept that I think could work on DF

Kitchens could start as simple kitchen, only able to make easy meals, and then evolve to better equipped kitchens to make more complex dishes.

Ideally, those evolutions would require extra equipment, built on other workshops.

Examples:

- Kitchen:
1 - Simple kitchen - No item requirement: easy meals.
2 - Fine kitchen - Wooden cooking tools (new item): fine meals.
3 - Grand kitchen - Metal cooking tools (new item): lavish meals.

- Mason's workshop:
1 - Simple masonery - No item requirements: all base furniture. There's a quality limit.
2 - Fine masonery - Metal tools: all current items. All qualities except the last one.
3 - Grand masonery - Fine metal tools (made in a fine forge): Allows the creation of grand masonnery artworks.

etc.

Your ideas about the general suggestion or about the rest of building evolutions, following a similar pattern, are welcome.

[Capntastic]

The idea of having workshops become improved through increases in size, better tools, etc, has been brought up before.  While I'm all for more tools and uses for them, this idea, unless handled well, turns into generic RTS techtree stuff which just isn't realistic and fitting.   

Having metal tools be a requirement to make specific things is fine, but having 'metal tools' magically morph a crummy workshop into a 'Grand Workshop' is just silly. 

Having a workshop built (or rebuilt) by a competent architect and builder, with input from the specific profession, along with a cache of tools imported from the dwarven mountainhome be far easier to use- and indeed a thing of beauty- to a crafter would be better than "right click -> improve workshop"

[zwei]

Variation would be to have some reactions also have "tool" reagent that is not consumed.

Tool reagent would them be left in workshop and the one contained in workshop would be prefered to use in future jobs (just to make sure this does not add up to much pathing).

Eventually, busy workshop would end up with compliment of tools/improvments needed for full utilization.

And, of course, dwarves could update workshops. Workshop build by dabbling mason should be less efficient that the one build by legendary mason with architects input. Simply, workshops could have quality modifiers like items do and when built, player could add aditional "building" tasks.

q-menu of workshop under construction could contain "design by [A]rchitect" and (depending on material used) "detail by [C]arpenter"/"detail by [M]ason"/"detail by [M]etalsmith".

If players desires to, he could build kitchen in three stages: architect, carpenter, cook; from which he could ommit architect and/or carpenter involvement.

*Kitchen*, anyone? Or maybe *<+Kitchen+>*?

[Detoxicated]

The idea of having workshops become improved through increases in size, better tools, etc, has been brought up before.  While I'm all for more tools and uses for them, this idea, unless handled well, turns into generic RTS techtree stuff which just isn't realistic and fitting.   

Having metal tools be a requirement to make specific things is fine, but having 'metal tools' magically morph a crummy workshop into a 'Grand Workshop' is just silly. 

Having a workshop built (or rebuilt) by a competent architect and builder, with input from the specific profession, along with a cache of tools imported from the dwarven mountainhome be far easier to use- and indeed a thing of beauty- to a crafter would be better than "right click -> improve workshop"

Well, I don't believe in the entire tool thing, to much micromanagement, but i can see that you could upgrade a shop to increase its functions... You can carve wood with crude rocks, and you could probably do a masterful job at it, but using metal gives abilities to new items and it increases speed in real life so upgrading a shop should mainly give speed boosts and maybe one or two items more but they should not matter too much... Also the speed increase should depend on the specific metal used... I'd see it like this, you order to create an upgrade pack for each workshop at a forge, the dwarf creates it and depending on the metal and the skill of the smith, speed of the said workshop increases. Also i could see dwarves building machines to increase speed, so you could maybe give some shops the ability to use machineparts to add perhaps powerlooms, saws etc... this would of course require to be connected to a waterwheel or windmill...

[Silverionmox]

"Upgrade pack"? ... 

Let the dwarves do it: In the workshop raws several tools can be associated with a workshop. You need just 1 of these to make it functional. When a workshop is set to upgrade, dwarves will:
- take any appropriate loose tools that aren't in the workshop yet and bring them there.
- bring tools of better quality and swap them.

Also: Flexible workshops & room definition, thread
Eternal Voting List: Room system defined Workshops

[Spiteful Crow]

Maybe workshops could just be a combination of the tools used in them, their quality, and skill of the builder who made the workshop, much like a regular item. Catapults already are, right?

Then you could get wierd stuff like, "This is a masterful copper Kitchen, it is decorated with fine dried strawberries. On the building is a picture of a dwarf. The dwarf is surrounded by plump helmets. The dwarf looks full." The modifications and art could be somewhat based on what kind of workshop it was. Catapults would have cool 'pictures' of goblins getting smashed by rocks. "The goblins look sad."

Then the building would be filled with tools, and like Detoxicated said, the tools could provide mostly speed boosts. Also, worse tools could provide more experience for the dwarf using them, and mostly automated tools, like a saw where the dwarf still sends in the wood, would give very little, and possibly be dangerous.

[Pilsu]

How is a masterful stirring spoon going to improve your cooking speed?

[Capntastic]

Anecdotal evidence, but when brewing beer my associate and I used a rather standard wooden spoon until I dropped ten bucks on a large metal one, and it vastly improved our stirring- which in turn took minutes off of our chilling phase- perhaps the most time-crucial phase of the worting process.

But yeah.   Micromanagement of this sort can easily get out of hand and entirely not fun.

[Footkerchief]

Also: Flexible workshops & room definition, thread
Eternal Voting List: Room system defined Workshops

Additionally:

# Bloat19, FLUID WORKSHOPS, (Future): More fluid multi-purpose workshops, where you can do simple tasks in a general purpose shop, but you can add tools to make more specialized objects with bonuses.

[Impaler[WrG]]

"Room system defined Workshops" has been moving steadily up the rankings, it's at #29 now and is close to passing "Feces and urine"    Lets see if we can surpass that crappy idea!

[DennyTom]

While I'm all for more tools and uses for them, this idea, unless handled well, turns into generic RTS techtree stuff which just isn't realistic and fitting.

Fitting? Fitting what?

Treetech stuff actually is far more realistic than system DF currently uses. If I should use the example of kitchen, than better tools allow you to make better and more interesting dishes. Yes, you can make bread without a bakery but only a few types and it is harder to make them well. Realistically this is not the only factor - a good cook in a bad kitchen will make better food than a bad cook in a good kitchen. However a good cook in a good kitchen...
Since in DF skill only affects the time needed to complete a task this idea could bring at least a bit of a realism to the gameplay.

[Talanic]

[quote author=DennyTom link=topic=48869.msg1008606#msg1008606
Since in DF skill only affects the time needed to complete a task this idea could bring at least a bit of a realism to the gameplay.
[/quote]

...?  Skill massively improves the quality of output, also.

[zwei]

While I'm all for more tools and uses for them, this idea, unless handled well, turns into generic RTS techtree stuff which just isn't realistic and fitting.

Fitting? Fitting what?

Treetech stuff actually is far more realistic than system DF currently uses.

Problem with tech tree is that it is very unflexible.

for example, techtree of

no tools -> wooden tools -> metal tools

Has middle element of wooden tools that is kind of wtf: if you have metal ones, you should not be forced to procure wooden ones which you are going to replace by metal ones in seconds.

Techtrees exist to limit players in RTS to certain builds and strategies as investment to go down techtree in several branches is nontrivial. Implied realism hidden in it is that industry is hard to reconfigue on whim, and wrong economical choices are punished.

[Dvergar]

I say don't bother, fluid furniture defined workshops are in line to be implemented correct?  I believe that is the Bloat that Footkerchief brought up right?

[DennyTom]

...?  Skill massively improves the quality of output, also.

Sorry, my bad