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[Deadmeat1471]

My ideas on magic in a realistic fashion, this is a brief overview of a conversation with a friend on the subject, It can be elaborated on if anyone finds the ideas useful or interesting.


I.   The source of magic

If you consider that many destructive magics require the creation of destructive forces, fire, lightning and the such, then it is clear that the magic must draw from somewhere the temporal composites of the magic in question. Something after all, cannot come from nothing.

This logically relies on the theory of the multiverse. With the myriad of forces and objects in an infinite multiverse the use of magic seems simple, the drawing of forces and elements from a different universe from your own in order to use it for whatever purpose you had in mind, I.E. flinging a fireball at an elf.

Beings can be sensitive to the distortions and elements of the other verses due to such an evolutionary positive trait as having minute and seemingly insignificant ‘luck’ or fate in your life.
With the spread of the ability to feel elements of the other verses it is only a matter of time before someone accidently draws in a spec of flame from another verse, and thus invents magic. There could have been thousands of previous accidental instances of elements from another verse being drawn into this one, however a single molecule of oxygen or grain of sand is most likely to never be noticed.
This in its small way has advanced the development of the sensitivity to the other verses in all races throughout time via its original minute benefit to natural selection.

II.   The use of magic

Using this magic is not a matter of creating a fireball and flinging it, rather a matter of drawing in fire elements or instances from another verse by reaching into the other verse in exactly the right way in order to exploit random breaches in the membrane between this universe and the others. These breaches form thousands of times a second, due to the infinite nature of the multiverses, however to exploit them requires precise understanding on when and how to reach in and extract the elements needed. Accidental conjurations are made, but few are complex enough to be noticeable, even fewer understandable.
Being sensitive was not enough, you have to both ‘see’ and know how to make use of the perception by exploiting breaches.
To understand the use of magic, picture a man who holds his hand up horizontal to his body, then pushes it forward a foot or so so his arm is at a bend from his body. When his arm was straight, this was within the natural host universe, as he reaches forward using his sensitivities in the multiverse and correct state of mind he is distorting the space of the universe as if he is reaching to an invisible shelf and taking out something. In this case a ball of charged lightning.

The whole process is essentially a mental one, no words are needed. However in order to teach the complexities of exploiting breaches words are inevitably to be used. This is then converted into the language of the mind by meditation instructed by the elders of the magic order.
 
III.   The evolution of magic

Magic has evolved differently through different races for example, the elves were the first to evolve the sensitivities to exploit the breaches in the multiverse, and therefore their evolution if more advanced than the humans, whom only recently began to feel the distortions.

Goblins never managed to develop this skill. However they make soul pacts with demons whom will hold the ‘door’ open between the multiverses by reading the goblins mind. In return the goblin is sworn to do the demons bidding.

Dwarfs being the third race to discover multiverse sensitivities use ‘runewords’ which are inscribed on souls stones, stones which have been imbued with the spirits of the dead.
These words are meaningless in themselves, but when used by the dwarf whom made them, they connect the evolutionary gap between dwarf brain and the sensitivity needed to exploit the breaches in the multiverse. Each runeword is that particular dwarfs calling sign for sensitivity to a certain element or object, thus enabling the dwarf to search the multiverse for it. Without these runes the dwarfs would be incapable of drawing anything from the multiverse.

[groo]

I don't want to rag on your ideas, but for my part, I really don't like the idea of civilisations in DF having access to magic. I like the low-magic fantasy feel of the DF world as it is now, where those with magic are innately magical entities like demons and mythical beasts and so on. If there's going to be wizards in the game I'd say they ought to be handled the same way as megabeasts; a set number of them per worldgen as non-civ entities, immortals older than time, except unlike megabeasts they'd be beings who mostly exist to meddle with the civilisations to achieve their own agendas. If they appeared in person to the player, I'd say their 'magic' should mostly involve being extremely hard to hit or hurt, deadly with their attacks, and having curses to cause things like fear/insanity/etc (which I'd also give demons, personally).

If any sort of magic should be available to the civs, I'd say it ought to be the ability to construct magical artifacts, and probably via strange moods rather than any sort of "magic shop". Maybe some alchemy.

[Mel_Vixen]

There is a bloat/req/statement from toady on the High/low magic issue iirc. As i remeber it, it says that the Magic-level schould be adjustable to get a high-magic (xanth-like?) or a mundane world at will. Apart from that please look for the older (Magic) threads and necro one if needed. This way we dont get the same idea (like Magic, Gunpowder, feces) strewn over many threads wich makes much of the reading redundant for us and toady.

[Deadmeat1471]

The idea fully supports a high level of magic or low, its all dependant on the knowledge people and groups have on the matter.
Its also independant of the level of powerfulness, more like ideas on the theory of magic itself.

As magic is due very late in development this is purely concept ideas not to be directly applied to DF in any practical way.

Also for those who are interested in what multiverse theory is
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

Also neither toady nor anyone else need to read this, by the title it is quite obvious it is pure concept, merely a set of ideas that may spring forth some inspiration.

[Mel_Vixen]

it wasnt a critic on your idea which is fne enough. Just sayig that there is a bloat on the adjusting (for groo) of magic and that there are many threads like this that exist already because Magic, gunpowder, digging NPC (to name some) - threads get really out of hand.

edit: Multiple planes are also in the bloats.

[Footkerchief]

I'd just like to note that no magic thread is complete without at least a link to Captain Failmore's rant on magic.

[nenjin]

Ah, that was worth the read.

Gonna split my suggestions off into a different thread.

[zwei]

If you want realistic magic, you can also go to "advanced technology indistinguishable from magic way".

Simply put: World was at one point adwanced way beyond out imagination. Nanotechnology everywhere, that kind of stuff.

Long time past The Fall, it is still there, latent, patiently awaiting for activation and commands, every living thing is crawling with nanobots that are literally wired to ones brain and contained withing ones body.

Anyone can activate them, oblivious to what they are doing. Fireball is merely cloud of nanites set to self destruct, flying towards one direction as they burn.

This, of course, weakens user, as energy is drawn from somewhere, and nanites need material to replenish themselves or else they are unable to act. This exhausts user as materials and energy is directly harvested from himself (or from creatures that surround him, shuuld he be evil)

Healing magic is just infusion of nanites that would repair ones body. When you do this to braindead corpse, you end up with zombie. Many rogue nanites in places that were hospitals before The Fall still animate skeletons, fruitlessly attempting to heal their pacients...

And, of course, God are just satelites high on thier orbits that developed consciousness over thousands of years and who are benevolently listeting to pleas of humans. Weather pattern change or columb of searing light to burn heretic, it is all in their power. Sometimes they would pick human, fry his brain with nanites they controll and use him as puppet prophet.

And yes, demons. Do i really have to explain them?

---

But noone knows this, they do know that magic works on force of will, that praying to gods does have results and that demons really *can* eat their souls. Sometimes, someone even unearths powerfull artifacts.

[Deadmeat1471]

Interesting stuff.

My idea for god within the multiverse boundrys was one of a benevolent being in some other universe whom for whatever reason seeks to do good will, prophets are nothing more than people sensative to the the multiverses whom encounter this creature.

The creature could conceivably be powerful enough to effect, maybe even seed the universe.

[Arrkhal]

One thing I feel like pointing out is that high/low fantasy is not the same thing as high/low magic.  High fantasy draws a distinct, dividing line between the magical and the nonmagical.  A sword is enchanted, or it isn't.  A guy is a spell-caster, or he isn't.

In low fantasy, magic pervades the entire world and everything in it, in more subtle ways.  A masterwork steel blade can cleave through armor and flesh in a completely unrealistic fashion (historical armor was, after all, very effective against contemporary weapons; otherwise, who'd be stupid enough to wear it?), while a no-quality wood one is practically harmless.  A ridiculously statted and skilled champion or adventurer can cleave through legions of enemies, while one just starting out can have his throat ripped out by a groundhog (real life groundhogs are mean.  I mode mine to have [NOFEAR]).  A legendary miner can dig nearly as fast as he walks, while a dabbling one struggles for a week to make a simple corridor.

Where's the dividing line there?  At what point along the spectrum does a weapon or a warrior or a simple laborer start to do things which are physically impossible?  If that point could be pinned down, is that even a hard transition where "mundane" ends and "magic" begins?  Does a genie appear and go "Okay, Urist, you are now officially magic from this day forward!"  Or is it a subtler continuum with a guy's abilities, magical and normal, both increasing as he practices, until, at Legendary+1bajillion, his magic and mundane abilities have both reached their apogee?

If you look at DF from a low fantasy perspective rather than high fantasy, everything is magical already.

And if it's approached the right way, low fantasy can still produce "wizards" that could match high fantasy ones blow for blow.  Let's say there's a fire lighter skill.  At low skill levels, you need a flint and steel and very fine, perfectly dry tinder, and it can still take an hour to get a fire going.  At moderate skill levels, a guy can make a fire in a couple seconds with no tools at all.  At high skill levels, fireball.

[darkflagrance]

There are some potential problems with the idea of a particular magical system based on drawing energy from other universes, that also claims that it is the sole system by which magic is feasible.

1) In reality, there are many possible magical energetics that can underlie a magical universe; there is no need to claim the multiversal model detailed in the OP as the necessary one. Certainly, the multiversal model could be one of many potential magical models available for a newly generated world, but by no means need it be the only one.
2) The current sphere system in DF implies a future system of magic based on associations, which sources magic in a subtly different way then the multiversal model.

Interestingly, few people in this thread have actually addressed the OP's suggestion. Goes to show that suggestions on magic tend to fall on deaf ears to due each individual's personal investments in their own opinions regarding the Magic Arc.