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[Align]

quote:Originally posted by ArdentPenguin:
<STRONG>I must say in the end though, I do find it hard to believe that there's no fortress site you can find that doesn't pose some sort of challenge.</STRONG>

I don't know about the other guy, but there's challenge, and then there's just stupid - I embarked onto sinister badlands or whatever, and the only thing different from embarking onto a mountain was
1. less interesting terrain
2. no mountain features
3. recurring skeletal hoary marmots and giant eagles
The Skeletal Giant Eagle was an enormous threat, zooming around and killing off anything that moved outdoors, and might seem like a nice challenge for bored people like me. But when I killed two and another just respawned more or less immediately, it stopped being a fun challenge and started feeling like the computer was cheating.

In contrast, my favorite fort of all time is one I've still got where I unwittingly embarked to right on top of a kobold cave. The first thing my 7 embarkers saw was the legendary spearmaster kobold ruler and his bodyguards.
I also accidentally channeled magma into my mining corridors, and the red river nearly reached my dwarves living quarters before being walled off due to a herd of two-humped camels that came running into my fort when I dug a new entrance scaring the masons away.
By now however, any threat to my dwarves has been dealt with and only the kobolds in their tunnels remain. I have a magma moat and bridge and a lockable entrance, and I haven't played the fort ever since.

So, fighting for my forts life against a beatable threat = fun, but actually beating it (or it not being beatable) = excitement is over.

As for self-imposed challenges... such victories would feel hollow.

[ArdentPenguin]

quote: So, fighting for my forts life against a beatable threat = fun, but actually beating it (or it not being beatable) = excitement is over.

That's a good point. There does seem to be a point during gameplay where the fort is basically impregnable, and the biggest problem is the sheer weight of narrow clothing/armor clogging hauling queues and framerate collapse.

So far, one of my favorite fortresses was in a Terrifying area where two rivers cross. The river was completely filled with hippo and carp, and several ogres attacked me immediately upon embarking. I lost 3 dwarfs almost instantly - both miners and the carpenter - and having to survive with the constant threat of ogre or hippo attacks made the game fun without being impossible or unreasonable, with dwarfs having to do jobs they weren't trained for (and being careful that dwarfs had time to meet with the expedition leader, so they didn't go insane from grief). Plus there was the added bonus of watching ogres get knocked into the river by hippos and ripped to pieces by carp; every once and a while the river would suddenly flow red...

But I agree. What was exciting about this challenge was that I suddenly had to improvise and overcome difficult circumstances; had I simply modded the game to take 4 dwarfs and no miners/carpenters, I would have just been annoyed. Self-imposed challenge only works for me insofar as it makes sense to me - say, designing an entrance in a certain, insecure way, because it seems like the way dwarfs would want to build it. Nevertheless, I did embark in a Terrifying area because I was looking for a challenge, and I found one, which is certainly a point in favor of how the game works currently.

The thing about the game is, embarking in a Terrifying or Haunted area doesn't guarantee an exciting time, just like embarking in a relatively safe area can sometimes lead to freak disasters. There is so much random chance in the circumstances you will be facing, there will be exciting areas, and there will be boring ones, and there will be ones that are difficult in an unfair way. It's an unfortunate (or fortunate, if you enjoy that sort of thing) consequence of trying to emulate a "world." While I don't enjoy artificial self-imposed challenges, I will often abandon fortresses after a year or so if it seems like an uninteresting location to keep looking for a better or more fun area. It can take a few tries, but it's worth it for the moment when ogres ambush your wagon before you know what's going on (or when you find that Kobold cave, as you mentioned).

[Sevrun]

I know this has been said before, but Copx... -you- are failing to challenge the game, so it doesn't bother challenging you.  You kinda have to build up to something more than a greasy spot on the world before the goblins will even realie you're there.  If you only have 30 dwarves...  You're not ready for the stories you've heard.

Everyone has been exceptionally generous with your continued petulant demands and lack of interest in putting forth any effort to achieve your desires.  The man who makes the game makes the rules, and he was kind enough to give everyone access tot hose rules (most of them) so that we could tinker to make things easier or harder.  This isn't his -job- and to my knowledge he doesn't get paid to do this.  People offer donations in appreciation of his efforts, but that does not give them, or you, or me or anyone the right to make demands of his time.

:walks off muttering, amazed that the kid apparently missed the bright yellow "this is still an alpha" sign

[Ghostpaw]

quote:Originally posted by Sevrun:
<STRONG>I know this has been said before, but Copx... -you- are failing to challenge the game, so it doesn't bother challenging you.  You kinda have to build up to something more than a greasy spot on the world before the goblins will even realie you're there.  If you only have 30 dwarves...  You're not ready for the stories you've heard.

Everyone has been exceptionally generous with your continued petulant demands and lack of interest in putting forth any effort to achieve your desires.  The man who makes the game makes the rules, and he was kind enough to give everyone access tot hose rules (most of them) so that we could tinker to make things easier or harder.  This isn't his -job- and to my knowledge he doesn't get paid to do this.  People offer donations in appreciation of his efforts, but that does not give them, or you, or me or anyone the right to make demands of his time.

:walks off muttering, amazed that the kid apparently missed the bright yellow "this is still an alpha" sign</STRONG>

There are so many things wrong with what you just said that I don't even know where to get started.  Damn do some people really rationalize things this way?

[Capntastic]

Honestly, the way people complain about the game is silly.   Some people are upset that not every possible site in the game has water, magma, trees, sand, this, that, and hidden fun stuff- and others complain that the game is too easy- all when the game is in alpha.   The game isn't done yet.   The game is a work in progress.   Dwarf Fortress, as it is now, is far different than it was a year ago- and will be far different a year from now.  It's hard to balance things to accomodate every player's desires when features are being added in at a rate much faster than should be considered sane.  

But people still complain- that the game is too easy or too hard or too zany or too realistic or whatever.   It's down right unreasonable.  This isn't something that can be alleviated by a quick fix- and even if it were, said fix would be shattered as soon as the next few releases roll around.  With so much going on in the development, it's a wonder that the game is as playable as it is.

I'm not saying that Dwarf Fortress (a free game, by the way) is flawless- I'm saying you should consider (at least what you consider) the flaws, and understand that the game is in alpha.  

CONDENSED VERSION:  Are you seriously complaining that a free game that is in alpha isn't balanced to cater towards a completely subjective viewpoint?  Come on.

[Sunday]

This is a suggestion forum.  The OP made a suggestion.  I fail to see the problem here.

Personally, I'd like some more challenge.  Started playing a few months ago expecting a huge learning curve.  So far I've lost a total of twelve dwarves - and the time I lost five of them was the best time I've had in the game so far.

That said, I'm sure more challenges will be implemented in the future.

[Capntastic]

quote:Originally posted by Sunday:
<STRONG>This is a suggestion forum.  The OP made a suggestion.  I fail to see the problem here.
</STRONG>

There's no problem with it, most people just seem to discuss suggestions and their own takes on them, as per the forum.   Otherwise he could just email his thoughts to Toady.

[Align]

quote:Originally posted by Capntastic:
<STRONG>But people still complain- that the game is too easy or too hard or too zany or too realistic or whatever.   It's down right unreasonable.

CONDENSED VERSION:  Are you seriously complaining that a free game that is in alpha isn't balanced to cater towards a completely subjective viewpoint?  Come on.</STRONG>

It really isn't. Beta or full release is awfully far away, and waiting until then to balance is essentially saying that there won't be any balance, or the enjoyment that it gives rise to, until then.

Plus, putting off balancing or polish until release might mean that doing either ultimately becomes damn near impossible, because EVERYTHING is in need of it, and changing one thing will change the conditions for everything else.

[ May 17, 2008: Message edited by: Align ]

[FaultyLogic]

Capntastic speaks the truth. I agree on all points.

I love the game for what it is, and what it someday will be.

[Capntastic]

quote:Originally posted by Align:
<STRONG>It really isn't. Beta or full release is awfully far away, and waiting until then to balance is essentially saying that there won't be any balance, or the enjoyment that it gives rise to, until then.
[ May 17, 2008: Message edited by: Align ]</STRONG>

The game is balanced to be playable right now, but if you'd read what I wrote, you'd see I was indicating that it's impossible at this time to balance it to cater 100% to people who want a very tough game AND people who want a very easy game.   For what it's worth, it is possible to have a very rough game via starting in a tough location, or have an easier game by starting in a more calm one.  Complaining that the game does not automatically make it hard or easy for you- which is a desire that is completely subjective and impossible for the game to divine on its own- is just being ignorant of these facts.

[Align]

As I read it, you seemed to comment on both balancing an alpha-version game as well as balacing to different opinions. I'm sorry if you didn't intend the former.

[Capntastic]

It's hard to express exactly what I mean, but the gist of it is that DF is at its core a sandbox game- but moreover a simulator.  There's a lot of synthesized cause and effect going on, and you can't really just put in a 'hard mode' without warping all of that cause and effect towards making the game harder; at least not without some serious tinkering.   And since the game is in alpha, that sort of tinkering isn't top priority compared to getting more cause and effect content things involved.  I hope that makes my thoughts clearer understoon.

A prime example is seiges; since they'll now actually come from places and each goblin will have a life prior to attacking you, you can't just have a button in a menu that activates a seige without drastically altering the world.  It'd be cool, but I don't think it's too high in the todo lists.

But with the army arc, you will be able to send out troops, which would probably trigger lots of cool battles...  so while it's not a "hit button for war" thing, it'll be possible to actively seek out action.

So, again, the game is in alpha, but things are getting better all the time.   Patience will solve everyone's requests, I feel.   Toady's been more than good to us in that regard.

[Sunday]

Sounds good.  I just misinterpreted some of the statements to be 'You're playing the game wrong!'