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Author Topic: Bows, crossbows and thrown weapons  (Read 2355 times)

LordDemon

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Bows, crossbows and thrown weapons
« on: December 14, 2009, 03:21:54 pm »

This is something I've been thinking a bit recently, and haven't seen much in discussion here. Mostly, differences between bows, crossbows and thrown weapons.

I'm not a history master, but as far as I understand, bows in warfare had loner range, due to their ballistic firing. Is there any plans/interest in DF to make bows fire in a more ballistic arc? This could expand to giving each weapon two ranges; direct and ballistic. Direct range would be without z-level changes, ballistic would be with them. In dwarf tunnels the first would be more important, on the surface the second would be better. This could make elvev bowmen experts on surface, but make them lose much to dwarven crossbowmen underground, where they can't take full benefit of the high arc.

Second part would be thrown weapons. Does the game at itself support this now? Something like Javelin, throwing knife or throwing axe, or in a pinch a thrown warhammer? I would love a chance to have my axe dwarfs carry two throwing axes each, which they could hurl at enemy before charge. Are such weapons possible now, and would they be possible to implement? Is there any plans/interest?


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Reese

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Re: Bows, crossbows and thrown weapons
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2009, 05:01:54 pm »

There's a throwing skill, but it's currently only available in adventure mode and to tantrumming dwarfs.
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Beanchubbs

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Re: Bows, crossbows and thrown weapons
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2009, 05:24:19 pm »

Second part would be thrown weapons. Does the game at itself support this now? Something like Javelin, throwing knife or throwing axe, or in a pinch a thrown warhammer? I would love a chance to have my axe dwarfs carry two throwing axes each, which they could hurl at enemy before charge. Are such weapons possible now, and would they be possible to implement? Is there any plans/interest?

You can throw weapons in adventure mode. But you cannot throw weapons in Fortress mode. You might be able to in the next update, but I'm not sure, I haven't read what Toady is putting in it in a while and I forgot. You can mod in a weapon, but it would act as a crossbow, just with the name of whatever you modded it to be.  It would be really cool if you could get non-tantrumming dwarves to throw things though.
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Sysice

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Re: Bows, crossbows and thrown weapons
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2009, 10:08:05 pm »

You can mod in a ranged weapon called something like "axe container" that uses "throwing axes" and uses the thrower skill.
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Re: Bows, crossbows and thrown weapons
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2009, 10:51:41 pm »

Or something called 'throwing glove', with ammo for it in the for of javelins, throwing axes, and maybe rocks.
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Funk

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Re: Bows, crossbows and thrown weapons
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2009, 09:53:31 am »

Atlatl's are the weapon for spears
notes:
can be used one handed
note that you need to stand up and have a hard time shooting out of arrow slits.
An atlatl can readily achieve ranges of greater than 100 meters and speeds of over 100 km/h.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The first known spear throwers come from European Upper Paleolithic sites in France and Spain. Most are from the Magdalenian period (ca 15,000 B.C.)
darts can be bone/antler, stone,wood or metal

Slings:
inexpensive and easy to make made from Sinew, plant fibers, animal hide, hair
can use metal(mosty lead),baked clay or carved stone sling-bullet forimproved accuracy, range and dammage
or use them to throw bottles of combustible liquids/posion

Quote from: Harrison, Chris. “The Sling in Medieval Europe.” The Bulletin of Primitive Technology. Vol #31, Spring 2006.
An experienced slinger could throw projectiles at speeds over 90m/s, while the longbow could fire arrows upwards of 60m/s (Gabriel, 1991; Richardson, 1998a). When projectile masses were equal, the 50% speed advantage of the sling equates to a 125% increase in kinetic energy (because the velocity value is squared). Despite this, the penetration of an arrow was still greater because the tip is roughly 24 times smaller than the side of a typical, spherical sling projectile. The impact force of a sling projectile was applied to a larger area during contact, making it unlikely to penetrate flesh, though the collision could cause internal bleeding and even crush bones (Ferrill, 1985; Grunfeld, 1996). Historical demonstrations of this power have crept into literature, providing unique, first-hand accounts of professional slingers in action. For example, during the Spanish conquest of the Aztec empire in the 15th century, an observer recorded that an Andean slinger could shatter Spanish swords or kill a horse in a single hit (Kormann, 1973; Wise, 1980). Vegetius, a Roman writer in the late 4th century, observed in his famous Epitoma Rei Militaris:
Soldiers, despite their defensive armor, are often more aggravated by the round stones from the sling than by all the arrows of the enemy. Stones kill without mangling the body, and the contusion is mortal without loss of blood.
ranges as little as 150m to as much as 500m (Demmin, 1964; Hogg, 1968; Korfmann, 1973; Wise, 1976; Connolly, 1981; Ferrill, 1985; Richardson, 1998b). Larry Bray set the Guinness World Record for a stone cast with a sling in 1981, achieving an impressive range of 437m (Norris, 1985). In retrospect, Mr. Bray believes he could have surpassed 600m mark with a better sling and lead projectiles (Bray, Personal Communication, March 21st, 2004).

note that you need to stand up and have a hard time shooting out of arrow slits.


throwing axe/spear/hammer:
short range(The effective range is around 12m)
needs skills to use to there best
best if built as a throwing weapon
the ammo is hard to cary in bulk
are axes dwarfy
note that you need to stand up and have a hard time shooting out of arrow slits.

The crossbow:
needs skilled works you make it cocking mechanisms
easily penetrate mail and lamellar armor at ranges of 100m
Their maximum range approached an impressive 350-500m
easy to aim (bows need to be held in place)

The bow:
fast shooting
long range 250m 400m if you arc the shots
need skills to make a good bow
needs the right wood to get the best

« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 11:39:35 am by Funk »
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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

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