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Author Topic: Do strength, agility, and toughness have any effect past level 5?  (Read 2135 times)

Saber Cherry

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Now that Dwarf Therapist conveniently displays the fact that (for example) my top miner has 16 strength, 11 levels above "Ultra-Mighty", I have to wonder...  does that mean anything?

Strength, in fact, I don't care about much.  I really wonder about agility and toughness.  The wiki does not list any effects for attributes past level 5, and especially for agility, it seems unlikely that the effectiveness would keep increasing along the pattern for levels 0-5.  So once you get a dwarf that is superdwarvenly tough and perfectly agile, is there any benefit in training him further before drafting him?
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Jude

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Re: Do strength, agility, and toughness have any effect past level 5?
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2009, 09:32:41 pm »

In Headshoots, their two top Deathsmiths had some stats in the 80s and were pretty much gods. So I'd say yes, although it's not clear if it continues rising linearly or tapers off sometime.
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Quietust

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Re: Do strength, agility, and toughness have any effect past level 5?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2009, 10:45:21 pm »

Actually, the Deathsmiths had stats in their 20s, while their weapon skills were around Legendary+60.
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Derakon

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Re: Do strength, agility, and toughness have any effect past level 5?
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2009, 11:24:16 pm »

There has to be diminishing returns or a cap on agility; you can't go faster than a speed of 1, after all. As for toughness, similarly I suspect there's diminishing returns. However, if I recall correctly strength continues to provide a linear improvement in your attack power no matter how high it goes.
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Saber Cherry

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Re: Do strength, agility, and toughness have any effect past level 5?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2009, 01:51:07 am »

Actually, the Deathsmiths had stats in their 20s, while their weapon skills were around Legendary+60.

Is this still possible?  Dwarf Therapist shows all of my skills capped at Legendary+5, but I don't know if that is a hard cap in Dwarf Fortress or an error in the tool's display.
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Smew

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Re: Do strength, agility, and toughness have any effect past level 5?
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2009, 03:07:37 am »

Actually, the Deathsmiths had stats in their 20s, while their weapon skills were around Legendary+60.

Is this still possible?  Dwarf Therapist shows all of my skills capped at Legendary+5, but I don't know if that is a hard cap in Dwarf Fortress or an error in the tool's display.
It is, however most programs don't show past legendary +5 because people aren't even sure if there are effects past that.
Also because dwarves can seemingly gain infinite levels in skills, there's probably a hard cap, but I couldn't tell you what it is, it definitely isn't +85, though.

Quietust

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Re: Do strength, agility, and toughness have any effect past level 5?
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2009, 08:21:25 am »

Dwarf Therapist explicitly caps skill displays at Legendary+5 because higher levels seemingly don't affect performance (originally it stopped at Legendary+0, but several users requested Legendary+5). If their skills go high enough (presumably above 127), Dwarf Therapist will actually start showing "UNKNOWN" levels with negative numbers (and some significant graphical glitches).
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Satarus

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Re: Do strength, agility, and toughness have any effect past level 5?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2009, 11:15:13 am »

A hard cap would be the size of the variable.  Assuming signed 8 bit integer, it caps out at 127.  The next number brings it to -128
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Truean

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Re: Do strength, agility, and toughness have any effect past level 5?
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2009, 03:56:47 pm »

After experimenting with modding and blatant cheating like memory hacking, I have concluded that it does. Exact results are impossible to show though.

Methodology:
Dwarf companion allows you to modify stats and skills up to 100.
It becomes fairly easy to have a range of dwarves with stats at integers of
10. Forcing each Dwarf to mine the exact same number of tiles will show marked differences between dwarves of different stat levels. The effect is hard to measure at best.

Results:
There is a qualitative (noticeable) difference between dwarves with stats varrying by 20 or more at all levels seen. Again this is not possible to assign numbers to easily. Mining skill seems to contribute to the amount of stone produced from mining stone tiles. The higher the mining skill, the more stone is left behind.

Discussion:
I encourage others to download Dwarf companion and replicate my results to gain a better understanding of the game. They can then see for themselves the results. This study is, admittedly, flawed, because there is no way to gain quantifiable numbers for the things being measured. In any case, the original question was if stats have a result above five. The answer is clearly that they do. It remains an open question if such effects are linear, logarithmic, exponential, or another functional form.
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Saber Cherry

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Re: Do strength, agility, and toughness have any effect past level 5?
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2009, 04:23:06 pm »

One possible method of testing would be a race.  Make some recruits with no equipment and only cloth armor, with stats of 10 strength (to negate any possible penalty from weight of clothing) and 10 toughness, but agility of 0, 5, 10, 15, 20.  Put them on duty with "Stay close to station" and put them all on one end of the map (in individual squads).  Then set their stations on the other end of the map and clock their times.  They should be a couple tiles apart so they don't bump into each other...   like this:

A1 HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH B1

A2 HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH B2

A3 HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH B3

...etc, where "H" is a clear path designated high-traffic, A1 is recruit 1's start station and B1 is recruit 1's end station.

Chances are that at least one will go get a drink in the middle of the race, though the starting 7 dwarves (and immigrants) are initially fed, watered, and rested.
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snaggles

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Re: Do strength, agility, and toughness have any effect past level 5?
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2009, 07:01:46 pm »

I had a squad of ten champions, all with toughness level 20-25 patrolling my fort, and all ten were exhausted (dwarf companion showed the value as a constant 65535), but when I used dwarf companion to boost their toughness level to 100, the exhaustion number started steadily dropping, when before it had been constant.
So, for the most part, having a stat over five (which according to some doesn't help), and boosting it all the way to 100 has an effect
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