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Author Topic: Reaffirmation of the Dwarves through an enemy game.  (Read 1072 times)

Tinker Thinker

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Reaffirmation of the Dwarves through an enemy game.
« on: September 12, 2009, 02:04:21 pm »

That is to say, I figured out why I prefer Dwarf Fortress to most other games:
It isn't frustrating. Things will happen in a variety of ways, never the same way twice, and so you don't feel too bad about yourself if that latest siege gets you, and you feel genuine triumph if you win, because you succeeded on skill, not rote memorization of what happens next.

Let's take the game that brought me this epiphany for example:
Medieval II: Total War.
Spoilered for rambling and not terribly important.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
tl;dr
Medieval II sucks due to the circular problems (need a to get b, need b or c to get a, c is impossible) that occur, and how everything pretty much plays out the same.
DF rules due to the well-evolved infrastructure and the randomness and variety of *effective* solutions to problems available.

I have now confirmed that there are three games on my shelf that are in the same genre as Dwarf Fortress that I would actually play now (I have a lot of civilization-level/fortress-level strategy games), and this is because they are enjoyable and nothing at all like Dwarf Fortress.

Anyway, has Dwarf Fortress ruined other games/proven itself way better than other games to anyone else?
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Lord Dakoth

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Re: Reaffirmation of the Dwarves through an enemy game.
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2009, 03:23:23 pm »

Ha, yes.
It completely destroyed Warcraft III and Rome: Total War for me. Neither of these games have elaborate death-traps.
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Lordinquisitor

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Re: Reaffirmation of the Dwarves through an enemy game.
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2009, 03:27:08 pm »

Don`t hate on my beautiful Medieval 2.. Pls just don`t.  :'(

You can`t really compare Dwarf Fortress and Medieval- At least not now.

However, Dwarf Fortress pretty much ruined Dungeon keeper 2 for me. And it killed many other games, too, because i coulnd`t stop playing it for quite a while. And now it even brought me into rogue likes. *sigh*
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 03:28:56 pm by Lordinquisitor »
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Kilo24

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Re: Reaffirmation of the Dwarves through an enemy game.
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2009, 03:50:04 pm »

Well, it's the first attempt I've seen with a decent shot at success of making an extraordinarily deep simulation (let's ignore Battlecruiser 3000 AD, shall we?)  Having the developer be able to hunker down and truly get into complex systems is very, very good.  The standard approach towards video game production prohibits such a strategy, unless it was built into a good engine and passed around (which is something that happens with mainly graphics code these days.)

Dwarf Fortress has the potential to truly change gaming, especially if the modding potential is realized.  Gaming is still too much attached to the idea of stories in the style of books or movies stapled onto a game environment forced into linearity.  The other games out there "solve" that by not including a coherent story, because making it actually good will be bloody difficult.  But Dwarf Fortress defies traditional development philosophy and will change the future.[/trailer voiceover voice]

I'm a little unhappy that it's not open source (mainly so it can be very modular later on, when it gets really good), but Toady does have good reasons for keeping it close to his chest.  I'm quite happy with it as it is, and think he's doing an excellent job.  The information that he gives us through the devlog, the podcasts, and answering questions does wonders on insulating us against the release drought.  The UI is poor, but it's hard to imagine a tight, well-designed UI that won't have to be scrapped later on (though a good intermediate UI still might be worth it to attract in more players.)  Toady's gone overkill on so many aspects that it'll be hard not to imagine an unparalleled game when everything finally comes together.

But, that's the future.  DF right now is a very good sandbox game, but too directionless to be one of the best games around.  If we're counting the promise that Toady's eagerly at work fulfilling, though...
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Chewykittens

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Re: Reaffirmation of the Dwarves through an enemy game.
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2009, 03:57:58 pm »

I was a casual rouge-like player and strategy player up until DF, When it was downloading I thought it was gonna be another rouge-like, when I started playing I said "so it's like angband 'sept you build the dungeon..." Then I found out it was more comparable to civilizations covered in crack.  Hell, life seems dull and non-dwarven  compared to real life.

Tofu

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Re: Reaffirmation of the Dwarves through an enemy game.
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2009, 04:06:42 pm »

[Redacted]
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 05:34:41 pm by Tofu »
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XSI

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Re: Reaffirmation of the Dwarves through an enemy game.
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2009, 04:28:55 pm »

First off, I think enemy game sounds too harsh, it's all just games, I'd say competitor games(Since I've started to associate "Enemy" with "Pull lever", and I wouldn't do that to any game that at least tries.)
spoiler for my random typing which always ends up just being rambling.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

TL;DR version:

Dwarf fortress does things right where most other games go wrong.
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Skorpion

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Re: Reaffirmation of the Dwarves through an enemy game.
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2009, 04:40:45 pm »

Yes.

Because, frankly, while I love games with a solid story to them, and driving around or shooting people, or exploring underground ruins while looking at the pretty scenery, I always come back to DF because it's just so damn rewarding.
Also, because it runs well windowed and in tandem with Firefox and IRC and IMs, so I can surf the net while playing it.
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Flying Carcass

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Re: Reaffirmation of the Dwarves through an enemy game.
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2009, 08:51:21 pm »

Heh, I remember in one of my Medievil 2 campaigns the Pope declared a crusade on Jerusalem and the Muslims declared a Jihad on Jerusalem at roughly the same time. So instead of fighting each other the Crusaders and Jihadists teamed up and conquered Jerusalem together. Yay!
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Sensei

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Re: Reaffirmation of the Dwarves through an enemy game.
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2009, 08:59:46 pm »

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this seems more like a rant about the biased Random Number God in Medieval. And yeah, shoddy RNGs ruin their fare share of games.
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Tinker Thinker

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Re: Reaffirmation of the Dwarves through an enemy game.
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2009, 09:32:54 pm »

@Sensei: You're not wrong, but you're not right either. The problem with the RNG is that, due to that bias, you don't get remarkable or unlikely events. No enemy can possibly field an assassin that can genuinely take down your king, nor can you do the same except with outrageously good luck (that is, several assassin-vulnerability events stacking on one king that has actually left his castle for once). So, since everyone starts with the same equipment and abilities every time, you very quickly find everything always going the same way. Without human guidance, England will always run roughshod over Scotland, the Turks will be annihilated by Byzantium, and Egypt will forever hold Jerusalem.
In Dwarf Fortress, not only are things highly variable from initial conditions, but the random element continues to assert itself.
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