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Author Topic: Magical magic  (Read 1494 times)

blainemono

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Magical magic
« on: August 15, 2010, 03:25:07 pm »

This one probably won't see the light of day, but i myself quite like it so here goes.

Basically, the idea is to implement the arcane simulation in a ridiculously detailed (read: dwarven) way.

Let there be two distinctive flavors of magic:

First, necromancy. Imagine there is the land of the dead, that is, an endless waste of gray ash where hungry spirits roam, separated from the living world (your fortress region) by the invisible wall. Initial 'thickness' of this wall depends on the region's good/evil alignment, and is further modified by the game play. When something gets killed, the wall gets a little thinner there. Where lots of things rot, the wall is eroded slowly but continuously. Where the wall gets thin enough, dead things can cross over to the living world and manifest themselves one way or the other.

For example, small thinnies would only result in the passing dwarf getting a morbid thought for no apparent reason. Bigger holes could lead to dwarvers getting possessed (in The Exorcist way, not the strange mood way), zombie infestations (dead things coming to life) and all other sorts of fun stuff.

Normally, only the largest massacres would trigger all this, but here comes the necromancer - some unpleasant bloke who specializes in breaching the wall to the other side - by sacrificing living things to the dead.

Benefits of this occupation are obvious: being the master of the dead lets you put a really good scare on one's enemies, allows you to animate and control the dead (or exorcise your possessed), maybe help the doctors a little bit by strengthening the link between the body and soul of your wounded... The tastiest (and the most dangerous) ritual would be the sacrifice of a dwarven child that allows the necromancer to cross over to the land of the dead and bring back something nice - maybe the soul of your recently deceased legendary armorsmith, or maybe something much much worse.

Drawbacks of all this hilarity are pretty obvious too, and heavy: your necromancers will be most likely shunned (or hunted down) by your citizens, not to mention the fact that the necromancer is basically an ambulatory hole into the world of the dead, resulting in all sorts of accidental break-ins, of which he would most likely be the first victim.

Necromancers could also possess the reverse necromancy abilities, that is, some way of fortifying the wall between the worlds, making your fortress a place of life and joy and goodness... but where's fun in that, right?


The second flavor of magic is elementalism. The basic idea behind it is roughly the same - there is an invisible world of pure elemental forces that is very malleable and can be shaped by the conscious mind. Unlike the world of the dead, which is just a plain, the elemental plane is a 3-dimensional box the exact size of your embarkment region. At the beginning of the game it is just a swirling chaos of primary elements with some pseudo-sentient elemental demons thrown in. As the game progresses though, your dwarves begin to shape it with their thoughts, the stronger their will, the more the effect. Where they pass, some sort of a corridor begins to shape at the elemental plane. The more they pass through the same place, the more distinct an impression they put on the elemental plane. Where they get happy thoughts, elemental plane gets happier and begins to spawn the nicer sorts of demons. Where they eat, the walls of the imaginary fortress become walls of flesh and hunger demons start to spawn and so on.

The result would be procedurally generated shadow of the soul of your fortress, where different kinds of elemental demons lurk.

As with necromancy, normally you won't see any of this, but then you train your mages who, by way of performing chants, rituals and other sorts of weird stuff, gain the ability to manipulate the elemental plane, that is, to summon and bind elemental demons of different kind to different ends. Say, lesser demons that have neither shape nor mind of their own can be used as elemental weapons (think fireball), while bigger demons can be used as thralls or bound to an item to enchant it. Conclaves of several skilled mages could open a stable gate to the elemental plane, allowing your military to pass through and capture something big, normally unsummonabe and highly unpleasant.

Naturally, this kind of power can't  come without a price, so it doesn't. While more socially accepted than necromancers, elemental mages suffer from the prolonged exposure to the arcane. They get a little crazy, yeah. The more they practice their arts, the weaker their will, the lower their skill - the crazier.

Then there are two matters to consider: the fallout and the playing with fire aspect of it all. Magical fallout accumulates when the rituals are performed, or where enchanted items are stored. Maybe you get some weird-looking sparks. Maybe one of your unluckier dwarves suddenly gets an extra ear. Maybe a perfectly ordinary sword gets animated and chops the aforementioned ear off, along with something more vital. Maybe you build a network of arcane sigils that drain the magical fallout away from your more populated areas.

The playing with fire aspect is pretty self-explainatory, I think. Imagine your magedwarf going to the barracks where some heavy exercising is going on, summoning a rage demon and enchanting a war hammer with it. At first it looks like you got yourself a nice magical weapon, but then it appears that the demon was a little to strong for the mage, a little beyond his abilities to contain properly. So after a while the proud wielder of the enchanted hammer accidentally hammers his own head off, then the demon gets loose and roars through your fortress in search of his captor. Or - maybe your mage managed to bind a greater demon, a demon prince or whatever. At first the arrangement works perfectly (for you), but then your mage gets himself killed, or just knocked out, or drained after some other ritual. The seal that binds the demon prince breaks and OH HELLO FUN

Sooo that's the gist of it. What do you think?
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thijser

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Re: Magical magic
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2010, 03:38:06 pm »

Well in general this seems like a reasonable good idea however I can see a lot of problems with sieges weaking that wall to far and I would say that you need a necromancer/evil aligment to weak it so that things can slip trough.
With mages getting weaker that's not very logical. Almost everywhere mages need a lot of training so I would say that in df they will need a lot of training aswell. I think that there should just be big risks of something going wrong if a mage tries to do something that's far above his training.

I think that an elemental world as you describe it is also going to be difficult to program. You should try to think in digital values and not in general feelings. So exactly what will decide how an elemental area is going to look like?
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blainemono

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Re: Magical magic
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2010, 04:09:30 pm »

I can see a lot of problems with sieges weaking that wall to far and I would say that you need a necromancer/evil aligment to weak it so that things can slip trough.

That's a question of fine balancing, of course. In my mind it partially auto-balances by 1) wall getting regenerated over time and 2) hole area being quite a small one, like 2 square diameter. I think this will prevent killing fields left by sieges from triggering the undead incursions. Spiked pits under the draw bridges, on the other hand, might cause a short-term zombie infestation if filled with corpses. Nothing's wrong with a nice little zombie lair under the bridge =)

With mages getting weaker that's not very logical.

Not weaker. Crazier. As in sporting an erratic behavior that freaks the regular dwarves out. Maybe an extra unprovoked tantrum or two. Maybe a personality shift (likes/dislikes section getting some unusual additions).

I think that an elemental world as you describe it is also going to be difficult to program. You should try to think in digital values and not in general feelings. So exactly what will decide how an elemental area is going to look like?

Actually the idea is for it to be very simple to code. The initial layout of the elemental plane would be pre-generated using algorythms not unlike those used to generate the soil composition now. The will-shaping thing is actually pretty trivial too. All you need is for every square of the elemental plane to have several values denoting its alignment, like happy/unhappy, hungry/full, angry/serene and so on. Then, every thought generated by any dwarf would shift those values in a sphere around the place where the thought occured, depending on kind of the thought, stats of the dwarf, probably something else. When some of those parameters hit a certain threshold value, the corresponding square changes its appearance into one of like 10-12 pre-defined types.

Same with corridors: every time a dwarf moves, the corresponding square in the elemental plane gets a little less dense. Once a threshold is hit, bam, a corridor appears.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Magical magic
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2010, 04:26:50 pm »

The problem with a magic suggestion is that very few DF players can agree on what kind of magic is appropriate for DF.

In fact, a good chunk of players don't want any dwarven magic at all.  (With a chunk of those being willing to accept wizards in other races, and artifacts having magic powers, but not actual "dwarven wizards".)

For those that do want it, most people argue pretty specifically against elemental magic as being entirely unsuited to DF.  Others don't want mana or other magic resources.  Some people don't want magic that is stable and predictable, instead wanting wizards to be a total disaster factory that spring random cataclysms upon the fortress.  Others (myself included) want wizards that are nothing more than fancy alchemists, with stable, predictable results based upon a need for resources that you must supply.

Magic as a whole is basically a giant hornet's nest, and it's probably the one thing that can truly shatter the playerbase if Toady is indelicate with it, and that's probably the reason that he's been putting it off seemingly indefinitely.
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Capntastic

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Re: Magical magic
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2010, 04:29:06 pm »

That and magic was always a far off goal.

I believe Toady's plans for magic are best summed up as not creating a system for magic, but for creating a system for creating magic systems.
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Neonivek

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Re: Magical magic
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2010, 04:36:37 pm »

Quote
Magic as a whole is basically a giant hornet's nest, and it's probably the one thing that can truly shatter the playerbase if Toady is indelicate with it, and that's probably the reason that he's been putting it off seemingly indefinitely

It is that the basic systems arn't even in place properly and magic isn't exactly needed at the moment. (at least in the sense of what we are speaking about)

It isn't as shattering as it would look, you always have to remember that everything is forgiven when you do something well and all Toady has to do is add in an option for magicless worlds and boom... the community is fine.
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thijser

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Re: Magical magic
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2010, 04:51:26 pm »

Well we could try to collect some diffrend ways to think about magic

1.0: Magic the basics
1.1 Magic shouldn't exist simple!
1.2 Magic should be entirly modable.
1.3 Magic should be forced into every game.
2: bases
2.1 Magic should have perfectly predictable effects, in fact it's best if wizzard skill only affects casting speed.
2.2 Magic should be entirly random or at least have random disaster happening.
2.3 Magic should be based on world gen created recepies that have to be discovered by the player can use it no magic to the newbs!

3: types of magic
3.1 Magic should be based on an as complex as passble system so that only the real pro's  3.2 Magic should be all about enchanting.
3.3 Magic should be based on a new world.
3.4 Magic should be all about alchemy
3.5 Magic should be about casting spells on your enemies.
3.6 Magic should be about boosting.
3.7 Magic should be about healing.
3.8 Magic should be about nature (elf!).
3.9 Magic should be about passive invisable effets (like effecting that army that is going towards you but without telling you)
4 amout of power for magic
4.1 Magic should be the most powerfull thing in the game.
4.2 Magic should be properly balanced.
4.3 Magic should be like megaprojects that the real pro's use to display their elitness, realy difficult and with almost no benefit.
4.4 The power of magic should be very stronly based on the player.
4.5 Just make it modable.
5.0 Source of power
5.1 Mana
5.2 Nature will bring us power (that's it I'm getting the magma).
5.3 Well you need gems and prescious metals we are dwarfs!
5.4 Well we need offers and objects to use our powers!
5.5 Some other world will provide it.
5.6 The source of power should be in the amout of risk you are taking.


I think that these things are more or less the important passble posisions. If we say these are the only passble ways of thinking you already have 2.430 passble ways of thinking about magic.
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cappstv

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Re: Magical magic
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2010, 09:25:06 pm »

I only want force suggestion
thats it
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Heidrek

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Re: Magical magic
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2010, 07:30:37 am »

Well, I think something that combines magic and science would be appropriate for dwarfes.

For example, a magma powered reanimator for making undead...  or a magma powered lightning generator, portal, magma generator and stuff like that.

The only problem would be, that with technology AND magic, dwarfs would be unstoppable.
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Medicine Man

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Re: Magical magic
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2010, 08:55:12 am »

The necromancer sounds great,In my opinion he should be a noble.So he would demand a dwarf to die in a ritiual but would ressurect a legendary dwarf and other Fun things.
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Gorjo MacGrymm

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Re: Magical magic
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2010, 01:41:24 pm »

Well, ya'know, now that we have lotsa different parts of animals and barrels of their blood laying around, ingredients for interesting magics stuff are right at our fingertips.  Want that artifact copper hammer to be really intersting?  Forge with a barrel of blood from a legendary beast..............see what I mean?  All you need are some reactions in the raws and VIOLA!

It almost seems like Toady has tailored made the game to head in that direction. 

Side note:  Since we have/(had?) a dungeon master for taming wylde beasties, why not just extend his bit a little further, like things made from said wylde beasties?
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AngleWyrm

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Re: Magical magic
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2010, 01:04:45 am »

I want a magical elixer that restores sanity.
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Rowanas

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Re: Magical magic
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2010, 01:47:42 am »

I want a magical elixer that restores sanity.

I want sanity potions, drawn from the mind of one dwarf and given to another. Remember, a horrific, unspeakable act from which there is no escape shared, is a horrific, unspeakable act from which there is no escape halved. :D
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Neonivek

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Re: Magical magic
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2010, 12:49:28 pm »

Restores Sanity?

So basically a mind control potion that alters your brain to conform to some semblence of sanity?
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