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[Granite26]

Losing metal while smelting makes no sense to begin with. You should be able to recover the gems though

Seeing as all goods are still communally handled, economy or not, I'd like some control over what gets sold. I already resent random dwarves handling shops, even worse if the owners start stealing whatever they damn well please and sell it off in exchange for gold with no input from me

So you want some way to designate what is tradeable?  I'm down with that...

I would think that adventurers would bring in stuff from worldgen or lost fort items.  Think about when artifacts get created in worldgen and the adventurer brings them to your fort.  How much gold would you pay for an extra artifact cabinet?  Even better when you've got to mint the coins to pay for it   (This, IMHO is a good reason to expand the breadth of the crafting system)

[Starver]

Noting that in Adventure mode you can't (or couldn't, I may be out of date/misremembering) use coins of a different civilisation except possibly at the level of barter items, so I'm not sure that your outpost (striving towards becoming a Royal Seat Of Power) would necessarily be expected to be more lenient towards them.

But I like the idea of coins.  Passing trade (traders should always want to trade, but perhaps there should be a distinction between Civilisation Caravans that circle the area to promote the interests of the local Elven/Dwarfish/Human civilisation and more sporadic traders that are more akin to Tinkers, or even Rag-And-Bone men) that isn't hostile in some manner[1] should be given shopping rights, perhaps even "I'll swap you this axe that I found for that food you're hauling and that fine hat you're wearing" possibilities with individual dwarfs it encounters (controlled by a mini-Trading dialogue that becomes available if you have the "Allow impromptu bartering with strangers" option enabled).


But I think the main controversy is the coins.  At least at lower skill levels (though I've only minted them as an experiment, way back when), a coin appears to takes up the same unit of materials as a metal throne, table floodgate/whatever.  So a more realistic material quantifying/division system is probably a prerequsite for coins that can be expect to be slipped into (and possibly pickpocketed out of) a handy purse to little effect upon the stamina of the dwarf concerned.

I'm thinking that this issue is being addressed, but haven't checked the "Next version: Tasks to do"-type thread recently, so I'm not sure if it's specifically on there or not.


[1] But opening up the possibility of spies/sabateurs coming and going as "normal" trading friendlies but either giving later waves of hostiles an idea of patrol military routes/more efficient pathing information, or turning "thief" or building destructor while in the heart of your fortress (or, more likely, in amongst your trading area, initially limited to just the Depot, the odd outlying workshop and the import/export stockpiles... at least until they sneak across the lava-bridge).

[Granite26]

There is enough content in the 'trade' field for an entire arc...   A lot of the things (making coins not stupid) are prerequisites for it

[LordDemon]

I guess in order to fix the coin issues, alot of the value issues need work.

Ideally, the bar of metal used to create coins should have value equal to the value of coins gained from the bar.

Due to this, materials should be much more valuable then they are. A gold bar that produces 500 gold coins, each worth 15db would have to be worth 7500 db. Silver bar would be worth 2500 db and copper bar worth 500 db.

I think other coinage should also be allowed to be used as minted money. If I have huge supplies of iron, iron coins may make sense. They may be worth less individually, but I can mint enough of them to be worth something.

[Rowanas]

No, that's the point. In almost all countries the metals used are worth less than the coinage, and with the "supply and demand" way that Toady (armok be with him) is going to implement trade would mean that your currency could be awesome one day and crap the next, based not on the value of your currency, but on the value of the goods that it's made from. The entire point of currency is to give a stable measure for the trading of goods, and essentially to bypass any economic failures in the raw goods. Unfortunately the currency itself is then a similarly fluctuating good in the real world, and so is subject to exactly the same flaws as bartered goods, except that it still gives us a common unit of trade.

[LordDemon]

No, that's the point. In almost all countries the metals used are worth less than the coinage, and with the "supply and demand" way that Toady (armok be with him) is going to implement trade would mean that your currency could be awesome one day and crap the next, based not on the value of your currency, but on the value of the goods that it's made from. The entire point of currency is to give a stable measure for the trading of goods, and essentially to bypass any economic failures in the raw goods. Unfortunately the currency itself is then a similarly fluctuating good in the real world, and so is subject to exactly the same flaws as bartered goods, except that it still gives us a common unit of trade.

But this is a more modern view of money. Original view was that the material itself was worth something. I would assume such monetary system would be more likely in mideval/fantasy world.

And it would easily allow us to trade with different cultures with ease, and even collect foreign coins to our fortress vaults.

[Granite26]

IIRC, coins were minted to aid in trade by being standardized weights of valuable metals.

[Maw]

Post edited on information from Granite26 below

[Granite26]

Maw:  I don't think that's true at all... Fiat currency wasn't popular till the 18th century.  Prior to that, all currency was backed with a commodity.  Coins started as being redeemable for grain, but eventually (in BC) became valuable for the metals themselves.

Coinage
These factors led to the shift of the store of value being the metal itself: at first silver, then both silver and gold. Metals were mined, weighed, and stamped into coins. This was to assure the individual taking the coin that he was getting a certain known weight of precious metal. Coins could be counterfeited, but they also created a new unit of account, which helped lead to banking. Archimedes' principle was that the next link in currency occurred: coins could now be easily tested for their fine weight of metal, and thus the value of a coin could be determined, even if it had been shaved, debased or otherwise tampered with (see Numismatics).

In most major economies using coinage, copper, silver and gold formed three tiers of coins. Gold coins were used for large purchases, payment of the military and backing of state activities. Silver coins were used for large, but common, transactions, and as a unit of account for taxes, dues, contracts and fealty, while copper coins represented the coinage of common transaction. This system had been used in ancient India since the time of the Mahajanapadas. In Europe, this system worked through the medieval period because there was virtually no new gold, silver or copper introduced through mining or conquest. Thus the overall ratios of the three coinages remained roughly equivalent.

Currency
History of Money
Fiat Money

[Rowanas]

Currently the British penny is worth more than a penny because copper is sought after. If it weren't illegal to melt them down, I would, because extracting copper is a fairly simple process that is easily performed even in your own home.

[Granite26]

Currently the British penny is worth more than a penny because copper is sought after. If it weren't illegal to melt them down, I would, because extracting copper is a fairly simple process that is easily performed even in your own home.

History dude...  Britain has Fiat currency that isn't backed by anything (other than the fact that it's required for paying taxes...)  Historically things weren't like that (for better and worse)

[LordDemon]

Currently the British penny is worth more than a penny because copper is sought after. If it weren't illegal to melt them down, I would, because extracting copper is a fairly simple process that is easily performed even in your own home.

But this is not really relevant. A modern ten pound note is worth nothing due to it's material, but we still consider it currency.
This is because we live in society where we trust the goverment to provide value for the money.
In fantasy setting, IMHO, money should be worth something because it really is worth something. 10 gram gold coin is worth 10 grams of gold, and 10 gram copper coin is worth 10g. In fantasy setting we could just as well walk around with unminted coins, and trade with pieces of copper, silver and gold based on weight. Coins were made so that people didn't have to weight the material, they knew that each coin is eequal amount of material, making coin reliable and easy way to count.

Of course, things like shaving would decrease the coins value, but only if the trader accepted it as normal. And of course, shaving is illegal for obvious reasons.