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[lordcooper]

Part way through building my flood trap for the orcs, I started having cave-ins over the site.
I have no idea what the hell was causing these, as there was no mining being done, only building constructions, hatches and grates.

In true orcish style, the orcs came before it was finished and I managed to trap them all in with floodgates.  There was no drainage in place at that point, so I was forced to collapse the ceiling on them, killing all the orcs and my legendary miner in the proess.

Started rebuilding the trap and the cave-ins have continued!
There isn't even anything TO cave-in anymore.  What's goin on?

EDIT:  I also heard it was possible to drain INTO a brook.  How so?

[Starver]

Only thing I can currently think of is if you're trying to build constructions (floors/walls) on the edge of a bridge.  i.e. using the bridge for access, and with no other (non-bridge) support-point for those.

Because you can build things there (it won't tell you there's no access/no support/blocked, etc) but there's no actual, physical support available from the bridge, so as soon as the block is walled/floored-over/whatever, the wall/floor item will drop as if you had just taken away the sole piece of adjacent terrain that was holding it there.

[lordcooper]

Nope, it's something a little like this I'm building:

(nowhere near to scale)

Code: [Select]

WWWWWWW
W.....W
W.....W
WWWW..W
W.....W
W.....W
W..WWWW
W.....W
W.....W
WWWW..W
W.....W
W.....W
W..WWWW
WWWWWWW
All the dots shall be hatches, then grates on the layer below.

[Starver]

Oh, and as for draining into a brook, I suppose it's the same as for an aquifer.  You can slurp up out of a channel into an aquifer and let the resulting water drain (from the back end of the pump) into another channel into the aquifer.  Or something like that.

It's all to do with the "infinite source, infinite sink" nature of the aquifer.  A brook (a "walkable-topped" river tile, supposed to represent an ankle-deep water-course[1], but being a fully-dug channel in the landscape in 'reality') may also be considered an infinite sink.  Or at least the way that it is fed off at the upstream map edge means that it cannot overflow.

This may require that a channel-digging into the surface, to avoid the water just pooling on the 'walkable' bit and flowing onto the banks.  Something to test, I suspect.  (Or wait for the next person along who knows!)

[1] I'm wondering if it could have been implemented the same way as constructed floors (of any material, over any other non-constructed ground material or on top of any constructed wall on the level below that would normally have acted like a floor), instead of kludged the way it was.  Would have been interesting to define shallow mill-stream diversions and have native brooks running that (apart from "damp stone" warnings, perhaps) didn't impinge upon the Z-level below.

[Starver]

Nope, it's something a little like this I'm building:

(nowhere near to scale)

Code: [Select]

WWWWWWW
W.....W
W.....W
WWWW..W
W.....W
W.....W
W..WWWW
W.....W
W.....W
WWWW..W
W.....W
W.....W
W..WWWW
WWWWWWW
All the dots shall be hatches, then grates on the layer below.

I know that Floor Grates need (non-grate) supports on the orthagonal sides.

The positions marked with "x" indicate where I wouldn't expect sufficient support for grates, and I've a feeling also hatches:

Code: [Select]

WWWWWWW
W.....W
W...x.W
WWWW..W
W...x.W
W.x...W
W..WWWW
W.x...W
W...x.W
WWWW..W
W...x.W
W.x...W
W..WWWW
WWWWWWW
But then I wouldn't expect it to allow you to build anything, there.  Surely they should be marked as blocked?

[Shakma]

It will let you build, but they they will collapse I think, which is probably the problem.  Or you are building those walls next to hatches without the wall being supported.

[lordcooper]

Yeah, my bad.

Bog standard floor tiles in those spots.

[lordcooper]

Walls etc already in place

[Starver]

It will let you build, but they they will collapse I think, which is probably the problem.  Or you are building those walls next to hatches without the wall being supported.

One simple modification, then..

Code: [Select]

WWWWWWW
W.....W
W....WW
WWWW..W
W....WW
WW....W
W..WWWW
WW....W
W....WW
WWWW..W
W....WW
WW....W
W..WWWW
WWWWWWW
Other variations might get you better hatch/grate to solid ratios.  At least where the hatches are (unless you were looking for partial or alternating-checkerboard styles of patterns, to make them still think they can route across but continually surprise them with a different set of holes) perhaps a bridge would be better?

[lordcooper]

Nope, the intention of this is to drown things, not destroy them.

Hatches are to drop everything onto the grates, insta draining the trap for reuse and allowing dwarves to safely collect the orcs stuff.

[Quietust]

Nope, the intention of this is to drown things, not destroy them.

Hatches are to drop everything onto the grates, insta draining the trap for reuse and allowing dwarves to safely collect the orcs stuff.

If you're intending to drop stuff, a retracting bridge would probably be more reliable as it can span a much larger area, though they take a lot longer to trigger (compared to hatches which I believe are instantaneous).

[Starver]

No, didn't mean an atom-smasher.  I meant build bridges instead of hatches, as a "dump them down a level".

You see, I originally thought you were forcing them to take a circuitous path over hatches and then dropping them into water, I now think I realise that you're letting them walk in a drowning room, letting water flow in on them at this level and then drain water and enemies alike onto the grates on opening the hatches.  I think bridges will still suffice for that modus operandi.  And, if not, there may be another modification to the plan that you can make to effect a similar end.

You're still left with the grates on the level below needing full supporting (no simple "on-grate/off-grate" mass-area device, in the same way as a bridge analogues to a mass of hatches) but, except for slightly slower draining, you can modify the lower level to make all elements supported at the expense of some non-permeable flooring in the key additional-support locations added on to the "W"-plan, above.

[lordcooper]

I got you

But still, the cave-ins....

[Quietust]

I got you

But still, the cave-ins....

The only time you'll get a cave-in while building (as opposed to deconstructing or digging) is if you try to build a wall or floor that's only supported by buildings (as opposed to constructions). Support has to come from above, below, or directly north/south/east/west (diagonals don't count).

Code: [Select]

=====
=####
=#!##
=##==
=##=

=====
=+#+=
=#!#=
=+#+=
=====

In the above diagrams, "=" is a wall, "#" is a grate or floor hatch, "+" is a constructed floor, and "!" is a constructed floor that will collapse the instant construction is completed.